Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?

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Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?

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Thread: Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?

  1. #1
    فداء الرسول's Avatar
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    Default Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?






    Assalamu alaikum. Could you please tell me where the original copies of the Taurat [Torah] & Injeel [Gospel] are? I am getting different answers from my Muslim friends. I was of the understanding that the originals were destroyed/corrupted and that is why the Quran was sent to mankind. Does a copy of Taurat & Injeel exist on earth in it's original form? I hope you understand my question and I thank you in advance for your time. Regards Helen.

    Salam Dear Helen,

    Many thanks for your question and for contacting Ask About Islam.

    You are right that there is a little bit of confusion about this, and also that some Muslims don't quite know the facts properly.


    The earliest copy of Saint Luke's Gospel in existence is known as the Bodmer Papyrus XIV-XV. It belongs to the Vatican Library and can be dated from between 175-225 AD, which is roughly one hundred to one hundred and fifty years after scholars believe the original was written. The document consists of fifty-one pages of a manuscript that originally contained seventy-two pages.


    The very earliest known fragment of the New Testament is from Saint John's Gospel and is slightly earlier. It dates from some time in the first half of the second century, which is maybe fifty years after the original was written, according to Biblical scholars.


    As for the Old Testament, there are around one thousand manuscript copies in existence. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text (named after a group of Hebrew scribes known as the Massoretes), dating from around 800 AD.


    The oldest Greek version of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint dates back to around the second century BC. However, with the discovery in 1947 of many ancient manuscripts in earthenware jars found in a cave at Qumran near the Dead Sea, two copies of the Old Testament Book of Isaiah, written in Hebrew, were found, which were one thousand years earlier than any previous manuscripts.


    So, what does all this tell us, and how does it fit into what Muslims believe about the original Torah and Injeel (Gospel) being corrupted? In other words, how does it answer your question?


    For our purposes, the Torah responds to what is now referred to by Christians and Jews as the Old Testament, and the Injeel refers to what Christians refer to as the Gospels, which form a part of the New Testament.


    There are clearly, then, existing copies of both the Jewish and Christian texts, dating back quite a long way. Biblical scholars are agreed that most of these texts agree with one another in about ninety-five per cent of their content. That seems quite a lot and seems to suggest not much change in thousands of years.


    However, five per cent of a book is still a considerable number of words, especially when you consider that the Old Testament is made up of 39 different books and a total of 593,493 words, and that the New Testament is made up of 27 books and 181,253 words. That means that nearly thirty thousand words differ in the Old Testament and nearly nine thousand words are different from one another in the New Testament.


    Enough of playing with numbers. Muslims believe that the original of both the Torah and the Injeel no longer exist in their original form. We read in the Quran what means:


    {Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings.} (An-Nisaa 4:46)


    And also:


    {So woe to those who wrote the Book with their hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings.} (Al-Baqarah 2:79)


    Muslims believe that God the Almighty did indeed reveal His message to previous generations through Prophets He sent down to them. Each of these messages was for a particular people at a particular time in history. The message given to Moses, then, was for the Jews of his time. The message given to Jesus, was for the Jesus of his own time.


    The Quran, though, which was revealed to the unlettered Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) over a period of twenty-three years, was for all people and for all time.


    So you see, there are indeed copies in existence of the books which Christians and Jews believe were the revelation of Allah. Muslims, however, do not believe that these books are a true record of what was originally revealed. They were either written down wrongly in the first place, or were corrupted by translation or by the deliberate actions of men.


    It would take an answer much longer than this one to explain, for example, how the Gospels were written. The early Christian Church eventually chose four Gospels from among many, which roughly corresponded to what Christians already believed.


    The writers of these particular four differ in their intentions in writing, but none of them write to prove anything about Jesus. They write to portray a different aspect of Jesus for a particular audience.


    In some places they actually disagree with one another, because they are not dealing with facts, as we know them, but with artistic creativity. These Gospels are indeed beautifully crafted, but cannot and do not claim to be the literal word of God.


    These Gospels were written after the letters of Saint Paul, in which the case is made very strongly for Jesus being divine. Paul claims his knowledge of this came from a personal revelation from Jesus.


    You will realize, sister, that trying to sum up the whole breadth of Biblical scholarship and Quranic belief in such a sound-bite answer is like trying to explain nuclear physics in a thousand words.


    In a nutshell, the answer is this: yes, there are copies of both the Old and New Testament in existence, which date from relatively close to the time the original message was revealed.


    Muslims, however, do not believe that these scriptures are indeed the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel) originally revealed to men by Allah Almighty. They believe this because the Quran tells them that they are not. The originals no longer exist.


    We should be very careful, then, in quoting from them to prove a point, since we are quoting from something which we believe to be corrupted.


    This does not, however, prevent us from respecting what Christians and Jews believe, because their own books are sacred to them and we do, after all, worship the One God.


    I hope this answers your question.


    Salam and please keep in touch.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

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    Allah bless you and all who contributed...

    We thank Allah that we are Muslims, and take our religion from a pure source.

    A brave question, even Christians can not answer best this question. The original copy is not available and what Christians read now is a manuscript re-written so called scrolls, once a king rewrote the bible and changed anything he did not like about Bible. There is no original copy, nothing, even many christians ask the same question. Praise be to Allah we Muslims have one true Quran and do not have such head-aches. Those who are claimed to be the writers of the bible are supposed to be witnesses of the events happened on that era (that is why it lacks accuracy and perfection) but they did not live on that period and had never seen Jesus and they just wrote a collection of stories and continousely telling the nonsense and with each edition and translation more errors and contradictions are included, this is what is called human errors and resulted in contradictions and questions and doubts.
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    قل هو الله احد * الله الصمد * لم يلد و لم يولد * و لم يكن له كفوا احد
    Dis : " Lui, Dieu, est Un ! * Dieu est le Soutien universel ! * Il n'engendre pas et Il n'est pas engendré, * et Il n'a pas d'égal. "


  3. #3
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    Please forgive my copy and paste reply. :)


    Witness of Islam to the validity of the Torah and the Gospels
    The Torah and the Gospel, or the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, constitute the written Word of God. Nothing coming from God, the Holy One, is false.


    What does Islam have to say about these two divine volumes?


    Actually, the Qur'an testifies to the integrity of the Christian Scriptures. Anyone reading the Qur'an will be astonished at its clear witness to the validity of the Bible's contents. The following verses serve as examples to this fact:


    "We have sent down the Torah, a guide and a light; the prophets judge thereby, as do the rabbis and priests, with what they preserved of God's book. Of this they are witnesses" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:44).




    "We sent down the Book to you verily, confirming what lies in his hands of that Book and watching over it. So judge among them as to what God sent down in this regard" (Sura al-Nisa' 4:105).




    "We followed on this with Jesus, Son of Mary, confirming what lay in His hands of the Torah. We brought Him the Gospel, in which is guidance and light, confirming what is in His hands of the Torah, guidance and exhortation for the pious" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:46).




    The Qur'an calls us to honour and to use the Torah and the Gospel:


    "Say, O people of the Book, you are nought until you uphold the Torah and Gospel, and what God sent down to you" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:68).




    "Let the People of the Gospel judge as to what God has sent down. They that withhold judgement therein are impious" (Sura al-Ma'ida 5:47).




    "O ye that have believed, believe in God, His apostle, and the Book He sent down to His apostle, and the Book He sent down previously. He who disbelieves in God, His angels, His books, His apostles and the Judgement Day, has strayed far away from truth" (Sura al-Nisa' 4:136).




    "We have sent men before you other than those whom we inspired; ask then the people of prayer if you understand not" (Sura al-Nahl 16:43).




    Christians believe in the divine inspiration of the Old Testament. The canon of the Old Testament was completed around 300 B. C. and divided by the Jews into three sections: the Torah or the Law, the Prophets and the Writings.


    Concerning the New Testament, scholars agree that it was written and in circulation while many of Christ's followers who had seen and heard Him were still living. The New Testament contains the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles of Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude, and the book of Revelation.


    This was a brief summary of the contents of the Bible, a book inspired by God and revealed to holy men. God has preserved it through His sovereignty and power, and has chosen faithful men to translate His Word into the languages of men throughout the world. The existence of the Scriptures in about 1,400 languages today is without doubt one proof that God always watches over and protects His Word.


    Indeed, nations will pass away, tongues will stop speaking and the world will continue to change, but the Bible will remain the Living Word forever. God's message for every man, woman and child for all times and places is found in the Bible. This message offers salvation through Jesus Christ to all people, regardless of their race, colour, language or nationality. The Bible has vital power which is available to all who will accept Jesus as their Saviour by faith, thereby becoming the children of God.

    http://www.arabicbible.com/for-musli...e-gospels.html

    peace and blessings.

  4. #4
    huria's Avatar
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    Pandora, Let’s see what you said in another thread

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    I personally would not quote the Quran in support of the Bible because there is no need to.....
    I did not have to go far to see using the Quran to support your corrupted book.

    In short to answer your claim, with the verses you used from the Qurn, The verses from the Qur'an, which command the Jews and Christians to judge by the Torah and Gospel respectively actually means that they must judge by the Qur'an since this is the only way to really judge by the Torah and Gospel sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively.

    · 2:285 “The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from Lord, and [so do] believers; everyone believes in God and His angels, His books and His messengers. We do not differentiate between any His messengers.”

    The noble verse described the muslims as the ones who believed in God and His angels, His books and His messengers but are the prophets before Mohamed still alive in persons? no.
    it means we believe in them as they WERE prophets ,and it is not conditional that they must be alive in order to believe in them...

    · not only is the case of the prophets but the case of the scripture itself, it is not conditional in order to believe in a revelation ,that it must be present fully as it was originally revealed ,eg;

    Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

    what was sent down to Abraham? no scrolls of Abraham survive till today ,yet the Quran described the muslims as they already believed in that scroll....... so how that could be?!

    That is the short answer for long answer you can read this,
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eir_scriptures

    and this

    http://www.answering-christianity.co...?topic=1155.15
    I doubt you will do though !


  5. #5
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post
    Pandora, Let’s see what you said in another thread



    I did not have to go far to see using the Quran to support your corrupted book.


    Huria, if you read my post above I started with an apology for the copy and paste.. I added the website link at the bottom. They are not my words.. And I never stated that I share the same opinion expressed in the article. I stand by what I said.. I personally do not see the need to use the Quran in support of the Bible.. The Quran may need the Bible, as we see many of the stories are similar and some of the Biblical Prophets are to be found in the Quran, or at least an approximation of them. As the Bible came first then I don't see how or why it would be necessary for an earlier Scripture to need support from a later one. I see you are no stranger to copy and paste yourself so I don't see where the problem lies.

    Quote
    In short to answer your claim, with the verses you used from the Qurn, The verses from the Qur'an, which command the Jews and Christians to judge by the Torah and Gospel respectively actually means that they must judge by the Qur'an since this is the only way to really judge by the Torah and Gospel sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively.

    · 2:285 “The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from Lord, and [so do] believers; everyone believes in God and His angels, His books and His messengers. We do not differentiate between any His messengers.”

    The noble verse described the muslims as the ones who believed in God and His angels, His books and His messengers but are the prophets before Mohamed still alive in persons? no.
    it means we believe in them as they WERE prophets ,and it is not conditional that they must be alive in order to believe in them...

    · not only is the case of the prophets but the case of the scripture itself, it is not conditional in order to believe in a revelation ,that it must be present fully as it was originally revealed ,eg;

    Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

    what was sent down to Abraham? no scrolls of Abraham survive till today ,yet the Quran described the muslims as they already believed in that scroll....... so how that could be?!

    That is the short answer for long answer you can read this,
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eir_scriptures

    and this

    http://www.answering-christianity.co...?topic=1155.15
    I doubt you will do though !
    For sure this is your opinion or one shared by you. I can respect that even though I do not share it. I have replied to your posts on the other threads but they have not been posted yet. I am starting to see it may be futile to enter into dialogue with you.. I do not think you have anything. If you have to use such websites as answering this or that or whatever then that sets the tone and it's one I particularly wish to pursue.

    I will make it easy for you. You can just answer one query... Which you kind of boasted that you could do so... So it should not be difficult. Before I ask the question I would like to respectfully ask that first and foremost you are honest with yourself and also honest in your intentions in regards to dialogue. To bear in mind that although you hold no respect for the Bible it is my Holy Book. I accord the Quran respect not because I believe it is what it claims to be... But because you and millions of muslims do hold it as your Holy Scripture and as such all Gods words need to be accorded the same respect.

    my question.. Feel free to start another thread if needs be.. Is.....

    who corrupted the Bible text? Name and shame please. When was this done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God in the first place?

    I await your reply.

    also this post seems to have some issue with the font size.. It has suddenly changed to a minuscule font. I hope a moderator can adjust this if not I hope you can see the font to read it.

    Peace.

  6. #6
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post
    Pandora, Let’s see what you said in another thread



    I did not have to go far to see using the Quran to support your corrupted book.

    In short to answer your claim, with the verses you used from the Qurn, The verses from the Qur'an, which command the Jews and Christians to judge by the Torah and Gospel respectively actually means that they must judge by the Qur'an since this is the only way to really judge by the Torah and Gospel sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively.

    · 2:285 “The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from Lord, and [so do] believers; everyone believes in God and His angels, His books and His messengers. We do not differentiate between any His messengers.”

    The noble verse described the muslims as the ones who believed in God and His angels, His books and His messengers but are the prophets before Mohamed still alive in persons? no.
    it means we believe in them as they WERE prophets ,and it is not conditional that they must be alive in order to believe in them...

    · not only is the case of the prophets but the case of the scripture itself, it is not conditional in order to believe in a revelation ,that it must be present fully as it was originally revealed ,eg;

    Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

    what was sent down to Abraham? no scrolls of Abraham survive till today ,yet the Quran described the muslims as they already believed in that scroll....... so how that could be?!

    That is the short answer for long answer you can read this,
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eir_scriptures

    and this

    http://www.answering-christianity.co...?topic=1155.15
    I doubt you will do though !

    Huria... I doubt that you will though ! ~ sounded like a kind of dare ;) so against my better judgement I read your articles. The point below from one of them I would like clarification please.

    Quote
    We must read everything in its context. When one sees the clear evidence that Islam teaches that the text of the Christian and Jewish scriptures of TODAY is corrupt, he or she then must attempt to harmonize and understand what the other verses are speaking about. When all verses are looked at together, the problem will go away.
    What evidence have you that this actually refers to the Bible we have today and not the Bible that was with us during 6th/7th century A.D.? We have Bibles from before, during and after this time. This archaeological evidence allows us to be sure that the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Quran are the same books that are found in the Bible today. This being the case it seems that the Quran is passing judgement on future scriptural changes.. So we are back to the problem of who made the changes and when and indeed more importantly why??? You can't really go around and say something has been changed when you have no evidence to show it actually has.

    Peace

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by huria View Post
    [SIZE=5]
    I did not have to go far to see using the Quran to support your corrupted book.

    Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

    Corrupted book you say? This book is supposed to be your book too. We didn't have a Christian Uthman to burn our copies like what happened to the original Qurans. You cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran; so, why do you throw stones when you live in a glass house? Even if it were perfectly preserved that doesn't make it God's word. A newspaper could be perfectly preserved and reliable, does that make it God's word?
    Why do you include Ishmael as a prophet? He wasn't a prophet; God never spoke to him; he was just blessed for Abraham's sake. That is it end of story; in fact, no prophets come out of him. Read Gen 21

Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?

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Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?

Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel?