Quote Originally Posted by M.Khaled View Post
Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.
Sorry, I'm still not getting the point you are making here.

Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

You are taking this out of context, which I'm sure we can both agree understanding the context is important for each of us.
This verse you quote refers to a person living under the covenant of the Torah (the Law of Moses). Ezekiel 18:20 is addressing the Israelites who were living under the Torah. That is, the context of this verse is the Torah and not the Qur'an. If we want to understand the verses we need to understand some basics about the Torah.

When somebody living under the Torah sinned they were responsible for what they had done, but if they repented they could be forgiven by a sacrifice that would bear their sin before God. The Torah explains this thus....

He must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. ~ Leviticus 17:11

This is why a lot of the Torah teaches about priests, sacrifices and the tabernacle/temple where the sacrifices were offered. The Torah teaches individual responsibility and forgiveness through a substitute sacrifice that bears our sin.

(The priests) will put the most holy offerings (there) - the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings - for the place is holy. ~ Ezekiel 42:13

the Torah was given to Moses from God, God made the laws and God decreed blood atonement for sin.. In the Old Testament this was a substitutionary sacrifice of animals, which was a temporary covering for sin.. All this was a precursor for the final atonement that of the Messiah.

Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?

I think we have already covered that. Jesus did the fathers will in every thing He did during His lifetime on earth and even before that. To do anything else would be an impossibility. Yet, you wonder at His sadness at the prospect of His imminent cruel death. Jesus may have, as Christians believe.. The shared divine nature of the God the father but for sure in every other way He was a mortal man of flesh and bone and blood. As such it would, I should think be perfectly normal to experience such feelings of sorrow. Jesus always prayed to the God the Father, on this occasion that connection through prayer was needed greater than ever because Jesus would know that what He was to endure would for a short time separate Him from God.. And even for the shortest of time this must have been a hard thing to bear.

Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.

Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)
Im sure I don't know what you mean by "manipulating certain events"I am just saying things as I see them and how it makes sense to me. I'm not expecting you to agree with me. lol... I'm just trying to explain... Badly it would seem ... My point of view.

Have a good day too.. :)