Thread: ...Bible Compared to Quran by Yusuf Estes & Dr. Gary Miller.....

Frankly speaking I can not answer on behalf of those respectful eminent scholars. Of course they have stronger answers than mine.
I would rather write an answer to your post since I copied and pasted their precious article to our forum.


You make your hopes for any kind of unbiased article evaporated. The article is never "unbiased" you think it this way.
Concerning the meaning, I am sure they know the meaning, both of them were Christian missionaries and preachers, and I am sure they know more than me and you.

Yes, what ever the meaning is, it never changes the right that this book is man made. I do not know if (God) ordered the christian priests (during the early christianity) to make a book of (Old and New Testament, Hebrew Torah "Tanakh" and four Gospels)!
The meaning is the appearance, but what is important here is the core and important questions about the content.


You say "Then they have the utter face by starting of with bold claims that they do not wish to put down or desecrete the Holy Bible". Instead of writing this sentence it was better for you and all of us to write an answer to them not accusing them. Yes those " bold claims" are from Bible and to Bible. They use Bible to judge Bible. They raise objections to your belief in the Bible as a perfect book from God, but those objections are very accurate.
What amazes me is that some Christians run to accuse (Old Testament) of being fallible word of God to save their New Testament.

The Gospels were not written by eye witnesses, and there is time gap between the Gospels them selves and between Jesus and the Gospels. The absence of original copy in Aramaic language, the differences and contradictions between the books are ruining the belief that (Bible) is from God.

Where is the genuine copy of your Bible?
What language were the Gospels originally written in? Greek or Aramaic?

What was Jesus native language? Aramaic. Them why were the gospels written in Greek?

Imagine this series: from Aramaic to Hebrew, then from Latin to Greek, then from Latin to English, Arabic, Chinese, Polish......etc. How many mistakes and mistranslation and changes were made.

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~"Bible" is NOT in the Bible~

and my hopes for any kind of unbiased article evaporated. How on earth can someone who claimed to be a Christian at some point in their life.. And even a "learned Christian" at that make such a crass error!!!! Have they no comprehension as to what the term Bible means? Biblos... Meaning collection of books, which is what the Bible is... A collection of books.
Then they have the utter face by starting of with bold claims that they do not wish to put down or desecrete the Holy Bible... Then they go ahead and do just that!!

Our aim is clearing what is unclear. And spread the peaceful message of Islam. And like the Americans say we (bury the hatchet) rather than using it.
There are christian theologians who accuse Bible and write books and articles, not only Muslims.
And I want to tell you and request "never think bad things of Islam". Yes sure our dear Prophet never "wished Islam to be thought of in negative terms", and I am glad you wrote this sentence. Yes, blame the mistakes on us but neither on Islam neither nor our Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace be upon him).
When you say "By the actions of some muslims in their efforts of Dawah it shows Islam in the worse light." I can feel that you are exaggerating, somehow.

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I am beginning to see there is no hope of talking rationally to muslims when it comes to matters of religion, your only aim is to convert to Islam, you do not care for the feelings or beliefs of others, and you will not stop with your hatchet job articles until all the world is Muslim and we all follow the Arabic culture. I'm so sad to think this. When I read articles like those above it makes me only think bad things of Islam and that's sad ... Because your prophet I'm sure never wished Islam to be thought of in negative terms. By the actions of some muslims in their efforts of Dawah it shows Islam in the worse light.

A I said, we use your Bible and ask simple questions. We can say the same of what you said to christian missionaries and preachers.

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If Islam can only "win" by default by attempting to show other religions in error.. Then that is the worse kind of hollow victory.

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Peace, may the God we both share love and bless you.

Thank you, and the same to you

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Originally Posted by هشيم

Frankly speaking I can not answer on behalf of those respectful eminent scholars. Of course they have stronger answers than mine.
I would rather write an answer to your post since I copied and pasted their precious article to our forum.

Their answers are really no stronger than your own. It is their opinion based on their own point of view. This point of view is not shared by billions of Christians worldwide and so in the grand scheme of things counts for very little. At least from a Christian prospective.. Obviously muslims will continue to set great store by the opinions of such "scholars" I hesitate to use the term scholar, after all one mans scholar is another mans charlatan.

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You make your hopes for any kind of unbiased article evaporated. The article is never "unbiased" you think it this way.
Concerning the meaning, I am sure they know the meaning, both of them were Christian missionaries and preachers, and I am sure they know more than me and you.

what they once claimed to be means very little, in fact for any Christians who views themselves as part of the living gospel such claims ring hollow. For anyone who sees themselves as part of the living gospel knows there is no turning from this road, God has set our path. There are a great many people who claim to be Christian but in reality they are so far from the teachings and understanding of Christ Jesus they may as well tread another path it would be better for them. I find it strange that some members here revile "Christian missionaries" above all else, and yet when one turns coat he becomes an eminent scholar over night. You are welcome to these eminent gentlemen.

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Yes, what ever the meaning is, it never changes the right that this book is man made. I do not know if (God) ordered the christian priests (during the early christianity) to make a book of (Old and New Testament, Hebrew Torah "Tanakh" and four Gospels)!
The meaning is the appearance, but what is important here is the core and important questions about the content.

I do know that in my heart of hearts the God inspired the Bible. The message we have today is what we as Christians are meant to have. Christians have faith in their scriptures as you muslims have in yours. It amazes me that you should think we would not, as I'm sure if I was to suggest to you that your belief in the Quran was misplaced you would quite rightly be horrified. That's the nub of the question... It comes down to faith, true faith remains steadfast... Because it requires absolute trust in Gods ability to guide the souls of His creation is greater than the one who opposes him... Satan.

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You say "Then they have the utter face by starting of with bold claims that they do not wish to put down or desecrete the Holy Bible". Instead of writing this sentence it was better for you and all of us to write an answer to them not accusing them. Yes those " bold claims" are from Bible and to Bible. They use Bible to judge Bible. They raise objections to your belief in the Bible as a perfect book from God, but those objections are very accurate.
What amazes me is that some Christians run to accuse (Old Testament) of being fallible word of God to save their New Testament.

my criticism of the "scholars" and their article may have been harsh, and unchristian in nature, for that I ask the Lords forgiveness. They, like us all, will answer for their actions before almighty God.

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The Gospels were not written by eye witnesses, and there is time gap between the Gospels them selves and between Jesus and the Gospels. The absence of original copy in Aramaic language, the differences and contradictions between the books are ruining the belief that (Bible) is from God.

Where is the genuine copy of your Bible?
What language were the Gospels originally written in? Greek or Aramaic?

What was Jesus native language? Aramaic. Them why were the gospels written in Greek?

Imagine this series: from Aramaic to Hebrew, then from Latin to Greek, then from Latin to English, Arabic, Chinese, Polish......etc. How many mistakes and mistranslation and changes were made.

Really, this means very little... The oldest copies we have in existence owe their presence to an original manuscript. The question you should ask is how reliable do we believe the scribes who penned the copies were? Based on evidence we have we have every reason to believe they were meticulous in their work, after all they believed they were dealing with the Word of God. Here is a link on evaluating the evidence.. I hope you read it.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

peace to you.

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Originally Posted by هشيم

Our aim is clearing what is unclear. And spread the peaceful message of Islam. And like the Americans say we (bury the hatchet) rather than using it.
There are christian theologians who accuse Bible and write books and articles, not only Muslims.
And I want to tell you and request "never think bad things of Islam". Yes sure our dear Prophet never "wished Islam to be thought of in negative terms", and I am glad you wrote this sentence. Yes, blame the mistakes on us but neither on Islam neither nor our Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace be upon him).
When you say "By the actions of some muslims in their efforts of Dawah it shows Islam in the worse light." I can feel that you are exaggerating, somehow.

It is only unclear to yourselves... Seeing as you have no interest in the Bible I fail to see why it bothers you so much. For sure it is not only muslims who make it their life work to criticise and attempt to find fault with the Bible, however I would not go as far as to call them Christians :) at least not of much faith, if they had faith.. Then they would also have trust in God.. If they had trust then they would not feel the need to doubt Gods word. Seems obvious to me.

I don't feel I exaggerate when I say some muslims do more harm to Islam than any non Muslim could ever do. When I read some of the quite hateful things said about non muslims I wonder if they ever do read what prophet Mohammed said in regards to other religions. Or maybe I have misunderstood, when I believed Prophet Mohammed showed tolerance to non muslims... I did not think I did but it is possible. For this seeming bad opinion and intolerance towards non muslims does not seem to be a product of either Mohammed or Islam.. Or am I again misinformed in this matter. So, for this I do not blame Islam or your prophet... But muslims themselves are responsible and you should maybe wonder where such feelings come from, because I don't see from where this division stems from.

peace

When one knows how Christianity is formed, when one knows how this book is arranged, when one realizes how this book is written (for example hundreds of years after Jesus), when one only realizes that there were Nicea once upon a time, when one reads about the early history of Christianity,when one looks for (Trnityt decree) in Bible, when the differences and contradictions between the Old and New Testaments, ..... and the list goes on...

these are not (attempt to find fault with the Bible), these are rather simple questions every body ask about anything. But the problem here is (the answer) rather than anything else.

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I don't feel I exaggerate when I say some muslims do more harm to Islam than any non Muslim could ever do.

Still this is not an excuse to blame Islam or run away from Islam. You look for a religion not a person. You look for Islam and want to know what is Islam not the persons and individuals. we are all humans not Prophets neither Angles.
No, you are not misunderstood, never.
Islam is about high morals, smile to the face of your friend, to help your neighbour what ever he is.. and so on. You can learn about Islam from the original source not from followers and individuals. We do not like to harm Islam and we do care about this, and we are sad when we represent a bad Muslim because we know there are who judges our peaceful religion through our behaviors, and this is not logic neither right, and this judgment is unfair.

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I don't feel I exaggerate when I say some muslims do more harm to Islam than any non Muslim could ever do.

Still this is not an excuse to blame Islam or run away from Islam. You look for a religion not a person. You look for Islam and want to know what is Islam not the persons and individuals. we are all humans not Prophets neither Angles.
No, you are not misunderstood, never.
Islam is about high morals, smile to the face of your friend, to help your neighbour what ever he is.. and so on. You can learn about Islam from the original source not from followers and individuals. We do not like to harm Islam and we do care about this, and we are sad when we represent a bad Muslim because we know there are who judges our peaceful religion through our behaviors, and this is not logic neither right, and this judgment is unfair.

Quote

When I read some of the quite hateful things said about non muslims I wonder if they ever do read what prophet Mohammed said in regards to other religions. Or maybe I have misunderstood, when I believed Prophet Mohammed showed tolerance to non muslims... I did not think I did but it is possible. For this seeming bad opinion and intolerance towards non muslims does not seem to be a product of either Mohammed or Islam.. Or am I again misinformed in this matter. So, for this I do not blame Islam or your prophet... But muslims themselves are responsible and you should maybe wonder where such feelings come from, because I don't see from where this division stems from.

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I don't feel I exaggerate when I say some muslims do more harm to Islam than any non Muslim could ever do.

Still this is not an excuse to blame Islam or run away from Islam. You look for a religion not a person. You look for Islam and want to know what is Islam not the persons and individuals. we are all humans not Prophets neither Angles.
No, you are not misunderstood, never.
Islam is about high morals, smile to the face of your friend, to help your neighbour what ever he is.. and so on. You can learn about Islam from the original source not from followers and individuals. We do not like to harm Islam and we do care about this, and we are sad when we represent a bad Muslim because we know there are who judges our peaceful religion through our behaviors, and this is not logic neither right, and this judgment is unfair.
There are quite a a lot articles on internet tell you about our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) and Islam, Quran verses and hadiths help you to know more about morals and behaviors, and how Muslims is encouraged to do good and say good and refrain from harming others. It seems to me you know about this because you refer to our Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) once more.
We Muslims have more and more orders and instructions concerning social relationships starting from family, neighbours, friends, even our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) taught us how to behave on roads and pavements. I can tell that there are not such thorough morals and ethics in Christianity.

No, you are not misunderstood neither misinformed. Our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) in deed showed tolerance to Non Muslims.

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When I read some of the quite hateful things said about non muslims I wonder if they ever do read what prophet Mohammed said in regards to other religions. Or maybe I have misunderstood, when I believed Prophet Mohammed showed tolerance to non muslims... I did not think I did but it is possible. For this seeming bad opinion and intolerance towards non muslims does not seem to be a product of either Mohammed or Islam.. Or am I again misinformed in this matter. So, for this I do not blame Islam or your prophet... But muslims themselves are responsible and you should maybe wonder where such feelings come from, because I don't see from where this division stems from.

Quote

When I read some of the quite hateful things said about non muslims I wonder if they ever do read what prophet Mohammed said in regards to other religions. Or maybe I have misunderstood, when I believed Prophet Mohammed showed tolerance to non muslims... I did not think I did but it is possible. For this seeming bad opinion and intolerance towards non muslims does not seem to be a product of either Mohammed or Islam.. Or am I again misinformed in this matter. So, for this I do not blame Islam or your prophet... But muslims themselves are responsible and you should maybe wonder where such feelings come from, because I don't see from where this division stems from.

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful

And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you.

[QUOTE=هشيم;590207

Still this is not an excuse to blame Islam or run away from Islam. You look for a religion not a person. You look for Islam and want to know what is Islam not the persons and individuals. we are all humans not Prophets neither Angles.
No, you are not misunderstood, never.
Islam is about high morals, smile to the face of your friend, to help your neighbour what ever he is.. and so on. You can learn about Islam from the original source not from followers and individuals. We do not like to harm Islam and we do care about this, and we are sad when we represent a bad Muslim because we know there are who judges our peaceful religion through our behaviors, and this is not logic neither right, and this judgment is unfair.
There are quite a a lot articles on internet tell you about our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) and Islam, Quran verses and hadiths help you to know more about morals and behaviors, and how Muslims is encouraged to do good and say good and refrain from harming others. It seems to me you know about this because you refer to our Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) once more.
We Muslims have more and more orders and instructions concerning social relationships starting from family, neighbours, friends, even our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) taught us how to behave on roads and pavements. I can tell that there are not such thorough morals and ethics in Christianity.

No, you are not misunderstood neither misinformed. Our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) in deed showed tolerance to Non Muslims.[/QUOTE]

I do not blame Islam for the actions of some muslims.. where did you get that impression? This I feel also should go both ways and muslims should not judge Christianity by the actions of the least admirable of "Christians"... For sure I know of some who think of themselves as Christians and are very far from Christ :( sad but true. Yet they are a minority. Also it seems to me muslims sometimes judge the immoral actions of the west as stemming from Christians, whereas theses actions are usually by people with no faith at all. We are all guilty of making unfair judgements... When in fact it is not our place to do so.

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We Muslims have more and more orders and instructions concerning social relationships starting from family, neighbours, friends, even our dear Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) taught us how to behave on roads and pavements. I can tell that there are not such thorough morals and ethics in Christianity.

I do not see this plethora of orders and instructions that rule your every hour as a necessity when it comes to the worship of God. When you say your Prophet taught you how to behave on roads etc... Is this a requirement from the Quran or is it sunnah? If the latter then does this impinge on worship of God? Does God really mind that you eat with a particular hand or do certain things a certain way etc? How hard is it to intrinsically understand that good behaviour towards others is pleasing to God? Maybe Christians see the Holy Spirit guides in this way. It seems sometimes that God gives us our freedoms yet Islam takes them away and replaces them with rules that it's hard to see what they have to do with a Holy God. Apologies if my words seem harsh, I do not mean them to be.

Peace upon you.