Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

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Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

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Thread: Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

  1. #41
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    -- I think that Christians prefer rest and relaxation to research and making the necessary effort, especially in matters of faith. I am wondering of what you say that you worship one only God. Call God what you want " Allah" " God" "YHWH" but be sure that He is the only true God that Jesus himself invited you to worship.
    Nonsense, there is no need for research into ones faith. If your faith on God depends on research and logic then what an empty faith that is. As a Christian I have utmost faith in God, my creator, my sustainer. I have utmost faith in Gods Holy Spirit, my guide and my inspiration. I have utmost faith in Christ Jesus.. My saviour and my redeemer who never a lie was found on His lips so when Jesus said I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I have the utmost faith that he was telling the truth.

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    The God of Nooh ,Ibraham,Isaak,Jaccb .Moses ,Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) . Was Ibraham worshipping the God of The Bible who is "The father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". Was Moses worshipping that God? Was Muhammad worshipping the God of the Bible ? If so you are on the straight way?. If not you are worshipping another God Jesus himself did not know.
    Yes, all the Biblical prophets worshipped the same God, as did Jesus and as Christians do today. Muslims have an incomplete picture of the Biblical prophets. Many, including Abraham and Moses experienced God manifested before them. You do not believe this because the Quran is ambiguous at best in regards to the Bible prophets, however the Bible is very clear on this point and I have no reason to doubt it as it makes more sense to me that the alternative version found in the Quran.

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    -- We Muslims , worship the only true God of that universe. The only creator of that world. The only true God who sent all these great prophets and messengers.with one message . To teach people that " There is no God but God (Allah)" He has no son, no wife ,no partner,no one equals him and no one likens him.No one has heard his voice and no one has seen him. Muhammad (pbuh) did not come with a new religion "Islam" .We are on the religion of the father of prophets and messengers Abraham.. The word "Islam" means "peace" in Arabic.Also it means "The complete submission to the will of Allah and being perfect obedient to him.Doing his orders and his instructions (which are always good and benefit for all humanity) and avoiding his prohibitions (which are always harmful for all humanity). . Allah ordered us to follow the religion of Abraham .
    I tire of repeating the same points.. That being I do not understand why the Quran makes such claims about God having no son, no wife, no partners and no equal. This is NOT new... Jews and Christians never held such views. In fact the only people who may have held such a view I believe would have been the pagan tribes of Arabia at that time, the very same pagan tribes that Mohammed was called to bring to the one God.

    Many bible prophets heard God, spoke with God and saw manifestations of God. That you do not see that it is perfectly possible for our God as all powerful creator to manifest His Divine being to mankind if He so wished to I believe places limits on Our God. I have heard of the term Islam meaning submission to God, but as to how it also means peace I shall have to take your word for that as the root meaning of peace and submission are very different I feel. I do believe Islam is a new religion, because it differs in so many ways from all that went before. The Gospels followed the Old Testament, the Jewish scriptures, the Quran denies the Bible as Gods word, muslims do not accept what the Bible claims for itself, preferring to believe it has been corrupted by man, yet even when making such a claim do not see how incongruous it is, that God failed to protect His message being changed by His creation ..mankind. If we ask the questions when was the Bible message changed.. By whom..how was it accomplished.. And what was the purpose of changing it and more importantly where is the proof of such claim?

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    He says in the Holy Quran:
    "Abraham was indeed a model Devoutly obedient to Allah, (and) true in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah: (120) He showed his gratitude for the favours of Allah Who chose him and guided him to a straight way. (121) And We gave him Good in this world, and he will be, in the Hereafter, in the ranks of the righteous. (122) So We have taught thee (Muhammad) the inspired (message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in faith, and he joined not gods with Allah." (16/120-123)


    125. Who can be better In Religion than one who submits His whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true In Faith? for Allah did take Abraham for a friend.(4/125)

    95. Say: "(Allah) speaketh the truth: follow the Religion of Abraham, the sane In faith; He was not of the Pagans." (3/95)


    161. Say: "Verily, My Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a Religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true In Faith, and He (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."(6/161)

    130. And who turns away from the Religion of Abraham but such As debase their souls with folly? Him we chose and rendered pure In This world: and He will be In the Hereafter In the ranks of the Righteous.
    131. Behold! His Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

    132. And This was the legacy that Abraham left to His sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh My sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except In the Faith of Islam."

    --- Let us see the commandments of Jacob (peace be upon him) to his family before death:
    133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, He said to His sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of Thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (true) Allah. to Him we bow (in Islam)."

    --- I do not doubt for a moment that Jesus (pbuh) was a great model in his submission , his Humility and his obedience to the will of Allah (pbth).This is evident in his words in the length and width of the Gospel. He uttered it high resonant :
    :"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent JOH-17-3"
    -- Jesus (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God,and Jesus is the prophet of God.
    -- His brother Muhammad (pbuh) testifies that there is no God but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God. This is the first rule of the five rules that Islam was built on.
    -- In Islam all prophets and messengers are brothers.We believe in them all.We make no difference between them.Allah taught us that in his Holy Book the Quran saying :
    136. Say ye: "We believe In Allah, and the Revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."(2/136)
    -- Peace bo to you every time.And may Allah help you and guide me and you to the straight way.The way of all prophets and messengers.

    to be continued
    That is it... It says in the Quran.. That is for you to believe as your sacred scripture from Allah through Mohammed. My sacred scriptures give me a different picture, and for me this picture is brighter and clearer and I believe that Gods Holy Spirit gives me that clarity. See my friend, I believe God sets us on our path and if it is Gods will that path be changed then then it is God who shows us a different route... Maybe one that we can understand the better. As we are all different we each perceive things differently and as such need to learn the way to Gods love by different means.

    Peace to you and may the God we share continue to guide you.

  2. #42
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    How can Jesus the UNIQUE son of God while Israel was the firstborn son of God as in (Exo 4/22).Soloman was a son of God. Peace makers were "sons of God".
    I believe I have to the best of my ability explained why Christians believe the term "Son" when applied to Jesus is unique in meaning and distinguishes Jesus from other usage of the term "Son". I have also supplied links to websites to aid a better understanding as my explanation is obviously lacking. So I do not feel I can add any more to clarify this point.

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    -- Why do Christians insist on raising Jesus (pbuh) to the degree of divinity although all prophets and messengers of Allah were men.Does Allah send angels or gods to mankind to guide them to worship Allah? Why do they insist to make him God or part of God although he said that he is a man and a son of man 63 times in length and width of the Gospel? Does that satisfy Jesus himself ? Did that happen the longevity of this universe? --- You said that I want to make Jesus mere man only. Yes , he is a man and a son of man as he himself called himself. Do you think being a man that reduces the high rank and value of Jesus (pbuh)?!!. By Allah No.
    -- Please,read about the people of Noah who have mocked him .They wondered how Allah sends a man .Allah told us about them saying :-
    Because Jesus never gave us a middle road.. Jesus gave us a clear path to tread. You misunderstand what the term "Son of Man" infers.
    Prophet Daniel... 600 years before Christ said..

    As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language worshiped him. His rule is eternalit will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

    For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:27-28


    Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Matthew 25:31-34


    At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send HIS angels and gather HIS elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Mark 13:26-27


    Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you? But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? I am, said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. The high priest tore his clothes. Why do we need any more witnesses? he asked. You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think? Mark 14:60-64


    The term Son of Man was always linked to the messiah in Jewish scripture, Jesus was that messiah. The Gospels and the Quran agree on this point.

    peace and blessings upon you.

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    es, all the Biblical prophets worshipped the same God, as did Jesus and as Christians do today.

    Dear Pandora,
    --- Do you mean that Noah , Abraham and his descendants prophets (pbu them) used to worship the god of tree persons in one (the father the god ,Jesus the god and Holy spirit the god ) who are one god ? .Did they knew trinity ? Where was Jesus then?. Can we say "Jesus (pbuh) is the son of Abraham and he is his God" ?. As you say "Mary is the mother of Jesus and he is her God ?
    -- You say "as did Jesus and as Christians do today".Did Jesus worship the same God?.Who did Jesus worship? himself.or the father or the Holy spirit? Is there God worship another God?. Can I replace the first question saying " Did God worship the same god?
    -- I did not write much in order to understand you step by step and excuse me for my stupidity.
    May Allah help me to understand your faith and guide me to the right way. Peace be to you.
    .
    Last edited by ; 13-03-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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    Dear Pandora,
    --- Do you mean that Noah , Abraham and his descendants prophets (pbu them) used to worship the god of tree persons in one (the father the god ,Jesus the god and Holy spirit the god ) who are one god ? .Did they knew trinity ? Where was Jesus then?. Can we say "Jesus (pbuh) is the son of Abraham and he is his God" ?. As you say "Mary is the mother of Jesus and he is her God ?


    Yes, Noah, Abraham and all the prophets worshiped the same God. You are mistaken if you believe the triune view of God is purely born of the New Testament, the concept is prevalent also in the Old Testament. Gods Spirit was evident from the start, as was His Word, who is Christ Jesus. I understand the Quran refers to Jesus as Word of God.
    Genesis 1-2
    The beginning


    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    Jesus said He knew Abraham.
    John 8:56-59
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.


    57 You are not yet fifty years old, they said to him, and you have seen Abraham!


    58 Very truly I tell you, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    No, you cannot say Jesus is the son of Abraham and he is his God ?. Or even Mary is the mother of Jesus and he is her God. Because Jesus is not A God in His own right. Jesus is of God, a manifestation in human form. I do not understand why this is so hard for you to grasp, that God who is all powerful exists outside of our sphere of knowledge and is able to accomplish anything and everything. God the Father is One and only God, His Spirit and His Word are part of God and cannot work independently but only at the will of the Father.



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    -- You say "as did Jesus and as Christians do today".Did Jesus worship the same God?.Who did Jesus worship? himself.or the father or the Holy spirit? Is there God worship another God?. Can I replace the first question saying " Did God worship the same god?
    Yes, Jesus worshipped the same One God, that is God the Father. We see no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. They had an eternal relationship before Christ Jesus became a man. This relationship is shown in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will, and in doing so, purchased redemption for His children... Us. Christs continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered by the Holy Spirit and kept focused through His prayer life. Christs example of prayer is ours to follow. Christ Jesus was no less God on earth when praying to His Father in heaven. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Fathers will. Jesus' praying to the Father was a demonstration of His relationship within the Trinity He was not equal to the Father and did nothing that was not Gods will... He was an example for us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need.


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    -- I did not write much in order to understand you step by step and excuse me for my stupidity.
    May Allah help me to understand your faith and guide me to the right way. Peace be to you.
    .
    Quote
    Please do not say such things that you need excusing for stupidity, for you are not stupid, far from it. I only wish I could make my understanding regards my faith clearer for you to better understand. I continue to pray to God for guidance. Peace to you,

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    I have heard of the term Islam meaning submission to God, but as to how it also means peace I shall have to take your word for that as the root meaning of peace and submission are very different I feel. I do believe Islam is a new religion, because it differs in so many ways from all that went before.
    --- That is very nature for all languages especially in English which I know. In English, the word has many different meanings. In regards to Arabic the word " " in Arabic is a verb means "submit" in English. There are many derivatives from the word such as: The noun " " means "submission" or " Surrender "the word " " means "peace" . So we greet each other saying :" " in Arabic. In English " peace be on you (or to you). By the way this is the greeting of all prophets and messengers.
    --- Islam is the religion of Abraham (pbuh) and prophet Abraham who named us Muslims which means the submits to the will of The Almighty God and the obedient to Allah. Allah (pbth) said in the Holy Quran:
    78. And strive In His cause As ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you In religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. it is He who has named you Muslims, both before and In This (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! so establish regular prayer, give regular charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help!(22/78)
    -- In Islam we must be in true submission to the will of the Almighty God. Obaying all his orders and avoiding all his prohibitions. Islam is not only a religion but it is also the curriculum of life or the constitution of life .Allah (pbth) is the only creator or the maker of humans and all things. Of course every maker knows the mysteries and the secrets of his workmanship. Allah who is the expert of everything, the knower of everthing,the wisest in all times, the beneficent and merciful of all his creatures put in his Holy Quran all rules and laws that makes life more better and more suitable for his slaves to live in a peace and lovely life.The Holy Quran limited the relationship of every one to the other.. The person with Allah ,with his wife,with his parents,with his relatives,with his societies,with that world.These rules and laws accompany Muslims in evety time and everywhere. Islam addresses the mind and logic recognizes the human body and soul and the instincts of human . Islam regulates all these needs in a legal framework satisfying the creator and the creatures. I think that is to some extent sufficient .
    "( ) (2/286)"


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    Yes, Jesus worshipped the same One God, that is God the Father. We see no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. They had an eternal relationship before Christ Jesus became a man. This relationship is shown in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will, and in doing so,
    --- "Trinity" means three persons in one god or one God in three persons.Jesus is the second Hypostasis and he is the word of God.The three persons are from One substance. They never separate from each other.Please, tell me how Jesus worship to the father? Is there a God worship another god? . Jesus was on the earth and the father was in heaven . Did they separate from each other? . How Jesus carry out the father's will? Then Jesus takes orders from the father? Does god take orders from other God?. Who is the original God and who is the reserve god ?When Jesus was on the earth,did the father stayed in heaven without his word?.Does the word of God separate from the father?
    --- When Jesus was on the cross ,the father was in heaven where was the Holy Spirit? When Jesus looked at heaven and begged to God saying "My father,my father why did you forsaken me" for whom he was crying to be saved? .Does god needs help from other? .Does God die and be put on grave as any human?
    --- When Jesus was baptism,the father was in heaven and the Holy Spirit was descending from heaven as a dove. Did the triple separate ?
    Is there any mind or logic all over the world can accommodate or absorb that .....,??!!!!.How do you understand that????.And you always accuse us that we always misunderstand Christianity. Is not that one of the enigmatic dilemmas that caused embarrassing problems in the generations of Christianity.Of course , you will say there is no enigmatic dilemmas in Christianity and it is easy to understand that.
    Last edited by ; 15-03-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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    --- Islam is the religion of Abraham (pbuh) and prophet Abraham who named us Muslims which means the submits to the will of The Almighty God and the obedient to Allah. Allah (pbth) said in the Holy Quran:
    Please may I ask, where does it say this of Abraham in the Bible? That Abraham used the term Muslim for followers of God. Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description? The first accounts of Abraham are to be found in the Bible as we have it, even if you do not like this fact, it is still the fact. On that basis the Bible should be considered first in authority in how Abraham is portrayed, unless you can offer conclusive proof that this account of Abraham in the Bible is false. Which you cannot.

    This leaves us with to differing accounts from two different religions and so it will have to come down to personal faith, logic and belief as to which account to follow. This means that I, a Christian, who hold to the Bibles authority in such matters will look to that account as truth, you will obviously look to your own.

    Now ow strip away the trimmings and get down to the core message Abraham brings... Which is worship God, in truth, obedience and sincerity.. We are both doing that already, according to how we each hold our scriptures as truth.

    Its simples... There is no issue here, or no bone of contention. We are talking semantics of language, which is small stuff.

    peace to you my friend.

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    --- "Trinity" means three persons in one god or one God in three persons.Jesus is the second Hypostasis and he is the word of God.The three persons are from One substance. They never separate from each other.Please, tell me how Jesus worship to the father? Is there a God worship another god? . Jesus was on the earth and the father was in heaven . Did they separate from each other? . How Jesus carry out the father's will? Then Jesus takes orders from the father? Does god take orders from other God?. Who is the original God and who is the reserve god ?When Jesus was on the earth,did the father stayed in heaven without his word?.Does the word of God separate from the father?
    --- When Jesus was on the cross ,the father was in heaven where was the Holy Spirit? When Jesus looked at heaven and begged to God saying "My father,my father why did you forsaken me" for whom he was crying to be saved? .Does god needs help from other? .Does God die and be put on grave as any human?
    --- When Jesus was baptism,the father was in heaven and the Holy Spirit was descending from heaven as a dove. Did the triple separate ?
    Is there any mind or logic all over the world can accommodate or absorb that .....,??!!!!.How do you understand that????.And you always accuse us that we always misunderstand Christianity. Is not that one of the enigmatic dilemmas that caused embarrassing problems in the generations of Christianity.Of course , you will say there is no enigmatic dilemmas in Christianity and it is easy to understand that.
    Dear friend, Whatever I say to you on this point you will not understand. I long ago decided that it is beyond all bounds of possibility to adequately explain the trinity to a Muslim. Your mind will not allow you to process the information because you will always see it the wrong way.. That is "separate" entities.. Which then lead you to infer.. gods.. Rather than God. No Christian in the history of Christendom has ever held this view of God. Best I can suggest.. Is to think of it as Gods nature, His Word, and His Spirit (divine will) are part of His divine oneness. We are made up of three, body, mind and soul. We exist thus in order to function. The body is nothing without its mind and soul.. Non can exist independently of each other but exist in harmony so to enable us to function as human beings. This is ordained for us by the grace of our Creator, yet you deny this same nature to the Creator Himself. With this stance you take it appears to be you see the creator as not capable of equaling His creation. Which is a ludicrous scenario!!! We see God the Father as greater than all His creation and nothing but nothing is impossible with God. God does not operate within the bounds of our human understanding it is not possible to fully understand the nature of God... Except for how God has revealed Himself to our humble understanding.

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    --- "Trinity" means three persons in one god or one God in three persons.Jesus is the second Hypostasis and he is the word of God.The three persons are from One substance. They never separate from each other.Please, tell me how Jesus worship to the father? Is there a God worship another god? . Jesus was on the earth and the father was in heaven . Did they separate from each other? . How Jesus carry out the father's will? Then Jesus takes orders from the father? Does god take orders from other God?. Who is the original God and who is the reserve god ?When Jesus was on the earth,did the father stayed in heaven without his word?.Does the word of God separate from the father?
    .

    You I ask such questions, yet how can I possibly answer such? These questions all stem from the same source which is being unable to see the Oneness in a Triune God. Suffice to say... Nothing can function without God the Father, his Word and His Spirit are constantly at one with God in essence. If you can understand that one thing then questions like those you ask above become void.

    Maybe it is that you measure Our God by human understanding, and the more I see of Islam it does seem like great importance is placed on logic, I see this as coming at the expense of the spiritual.. And God for me is spiritual and far above this world and what we know of it.

    Peace to you, pray to God for guidance at it will be yours. May God bless you.

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    Please may I ask, where does it say this of Abraham in the Bible? That Abraham used the term Muslim for followers of God. Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description? The first accounts of Abraham are to be found in the Bible as we have it, even if you do not like this fact, it is still the fact. On that basis the Bible should be considered first in authority in how Abraham is portrayed, unless you can offer conclusive proof that this account of Abraham in the Bible is false. Which you cannot.
    Dear friend Pandora,

    -- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Noah ,Abraham and his descendants of prophets and messengers used to worship the God of three persons in one or the one which consists of three persons ?.
    -- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Jesus (pbuh) is God or he is the second hypostasis in trinity? The father is not the son or the Holy spirit .And the son is not the father or the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is not the father or the son but they are one but the three Gods are one God ? from where do you take your religion? Where are the words " hypostasis" "trinity" in the Bible in any language of the world?
    -- Where in the bible that the young son god worships the old father god prostrating ,crying and begging him to help him? .Can god be beaten,be humiliated ,be insulted ,be taken off his clothes and be spit in his face. What kind of god that ????!!!! . Is that the God that all previous prophets worship ? From where do you take your religion? Who do you worship in that world?.With any heart or any eye of any mind will you meet the only true God that Jesus invited you to worship in the day of resurrection . Allah (pbth) said in the Holy Quran
    :
    * 42. Say: if there had been (other) gods with him, As They say,- Behold, They would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!
    43. Glory to Him! He is high above all that They say!- Exalted and great (beyond measure)!(17/42-43)

    * 22. If there Were, In the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion In both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what They attribute to Him!
    23. He cannot be questioned for His acts, but They will be questioned (for theirs).(21/22-23)


    * 3. Yet have They taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can They control death nor life nor Resurrection. (25/3)

    * 23. "Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? if ((Allah)) Most gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can They deliver Me.
    24. "I would indeed, if I were to do so, be In Manifest error(36/23-24).

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    Is Muslim not an Arabic word? Am I mistaken in this? Was Abraham an Arab? No?? So why would Abraham use an Arabic word for description?
    --- No , Abraham ( Ibrahim in Arabic ) was not Arabic man and did not speak Arabic. He spoke his language whatever it was. But the Holy Quran was descended by Arabic language.Was Jesus (pbuh) speaking English but the Bible was descended in Aramaic language and all translations were from Aramic to any other languages.Was Moses Arabic but Allah (pbth) told us about his doings and his sayings in the Holy Quran in Arabic. Ibrahim was the father of prophets and messengers.All prophets and messengers came to the world with one message .Inviting people to worship the only true God of that universe.They came with the religion of oneness and monotheism.The religion of the pure monotheism and the complete submission to the will of Allah . The only true God that has no partner, no wife , no son , no one has seen him and no one has heard his voice. All prophets and messengers were sincere and honest in their submission to the will of Allah and their obedience to Allah. So we believe that all prophets and messengers were Mulims by the mean that muslims means submits or surrendered . I think that you will not accept that .
    -- Jews clained that Abraham was Jewish and Christians claimed that Abraham was Christian.Allah jedged that matter saying :

    65. Ye people of the Book! why dispute ye about Abraham, when the law and the Gospel were not revealed till after Him? have ye no understanding?

    66. Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) In matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye In matters of which ye have no knowledge? it is Allah who knows, and ye who know not!

    67. Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but He was true In Faith, and bowed His will to Allah.s (which is Islam), and He joined not gods with Allah.(3/65-67)

    -- Ibraham was a model to all prophets and messengers .He was a fantastic model in his sencer submission and his obedience to the will of Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) followed him. Muhammad is one of the descendants of Abraham because he was in the descendant of Ismael the son of Abraham.Abraham invited his people to worship the only true God saying in the Quran :

    83. Verily among those who followed His way was Abraham.
    84. Behold! He approached His Lord with a sound heart.
    85. Behold! He said to His father and to His people, "What is that which ye worship?
    86. "Is it a falsehood- gods other than Allah. that ye desire?
    87. "Then what is your idea about the Lord of the worlds?"(37/83-87)


    -- I hope that I have answered your questions.
    Last edited by ; 16-03-2014 at 01:13 PM.
    "( ) (2/286)"


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    Dear friend Pandora, -- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Noah ,Abraham and his descendants of prophets and messengers used to worship the God of three persons in one or the one which consists of three persons ?.-- Where in the Bible in any language of the world it is written that Jesus (pbuh) is God or he is the second hypostasis in trinity? The father is not the son or the Holy spirit .And the son is not the father or the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is not the father or the son but they are one but the three Gods are one God ? from where do you take your religion? Where are the words " hypostasis" "trinity" in the Bible in any language of the world?
    Friend, I am beiginning to think that you pay no heed to my posts or maybe that my words are at fault and they lack clarity, that we seem to be covering the same points. Where do you think Christians got their belief in the trinity from if not from the Bible? It was always to be found there, of course the Prophets did worship the same God as we have now, for it was this same God..YHWH.. That gave them this knowledge through revelation. If you are talking of the word ~ Trinity ~ then for sure you will not find that. No more than you will find the word ~ Tawheed ~ in the Quran, yet the concept of oneness is there to be found throughout its pages, is it not? The term Trinity, was coined years after the death and resurrection of the Christ but that does not mean it was a new invented concept, it was not. Same goes for ~ Hypotasis ~ these are words used by men seeking to describe in simple terms how God revealed Himself to us in the Bible. Why would God have to describe Himself to us in words.. Or better for mans gradual understanding and enlightenment by deeds and examples? I attach an article that explains the Trinity revealed in the Old Testament, seeing as the Old testament predates the Gospels by near on a thousand years I hope you can see that the Gospels did not "invent" the trinity concept, they just clarified what was always there... Trinity is a term used to describe the idea of one God existing in three distinct Persons, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a 4th Century invention, its roots are found in the Old Testament.Plural Words Are Used To Describe God Throughout The Old TestamentThe Bible begins with these words:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)The word God is the Hebrew word elohiym. Elohiym is the plural form of the word God. It implies unity in plurality.While modern scholars argue back and forth about this word usage the ancient rabbis understood that the plural usage was a legitimate point as this passage from Genesis Rabbah shows:Rabbi Samuel ben Nahman said in Rabbi Jonathans name: When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID; LET US MAKE MAN, etc., he said: Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics? [for maintaining a plurality of deity]. Write, replied He; whoever wishes to err may err.And while we dont endorse the theology found in the Zohar, their commentary on the Shema, the declaration that the Lord is one from Deuteronomy 6:4, is interesting:Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonaithree modes which yet form one unitySome Subtle Examples Of The TrinityIn the Old Testament we find that God has organized many biblical ideas in trinitarian ways.The Old Testament itself is a trinity being made up of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The same is true for the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel is also a trinity, being made up of priests, Levites, and Israelites. The Jews pray three times a day in the morning, afternoon, and evenings.In Numbers 6:24-26 the Lord gives a three-fold blessing and in Isaiah 6:3 the angels give God three-fold praise crying, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.Does all this prove the Trinity? No, but it does open the door to the possibility, and should encourage us to continue our study. Ultimately the issue has to be decided by Scripture, which is where well now turn our attention.God Mentioned As Two Distinct PersonalitiesFor example:Psalm 110The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.God anoints God in Psalm 45You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.God is speaking and says Hell save Israel by the Lord, their God in Hosea 1Yet I [God] will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.The Lord rains fire from the Lord in Genesis 19:24:Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.God is sent by God in Zechariah 2:8-9:For thus says the LORD of hosts: He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.God sends His messenger, the Lord, who will come to His temple in Malachi 3Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming, Says the LORD of hosts.We find God and His Son in Proverb 30:4:Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Sons name, if you know?God gives the nations to His Son in Psalm 2:7-8:The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession.From God will come a Ruler who is eternal, of old, from everlasting in Micah 5:2:But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.God Is Mentioned As Three Distinct PersonalitiesThere are a couple of wonderful examples of the Trinity in Isaiah:In this passage the speaker is God who has been sent by the Lord God and the Holy Spirit. This passage is very clearly shows the Trinity. Isaiah 48:12,16-17:Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.The Lord became the Savior but it wasnt the Father, but the Angel of His Presence (A term referring to the physical manifestation of God), and we also have the Holy Spirit who was grieved when the people rebelled. Isaiah 63:7-10:I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.For He said, Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie. So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted,And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old.But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.The Memra, The Word Of The LordIts interesting to see the way the ancient rabbis handled verses like the ones above. In the Targums, which are Aramaic translations of the Old Testament, the Aramaic word Memra, which means the Word or The Word of the Lord, is used when physical manifestations of God appear or when God is mentioned more than once in the same verse. Here are a few examples from the Targums:The Memra acts as a mediator between the Father and Creation:And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you (Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7)And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17)The Memra is God and is worshiped as such:And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If the Word [Memra] of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my fathers house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra] of Lord be my God. (Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21)And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and said, You are Lord who does see, but You cannot be seen. (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14)The Memra is God, yet is a separate personality from the Father and Holy Spirit:And the Word [Memra] of the Lord caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the Lord in heaven. (Targum Jonathan on Gen. 19:24)And Israel saw the great strong hand of God, what He did to the Egyptians. They feared God and believed in His Word [Memra] and in His servant Moses. (Onkeles Targum on Exodus 14:31)The Memra is Jesus:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4)The Greek word for Memra is Logos, which in English translates to The Word. So what John 1 is saying that Jesus is the Memra, the Word. He is fully God yet distinct from the Father and is the mediator between the Father and Creation. No one comes to the Father except by Me.The concept of the Trinity has biblical support in the Old Testament. We see one God yet we also see clearly separate personalities. We see plurality in unity.Some people want a God who is simpler than His creation. But that isnt the God of the Bible. The Trinity is a concept we cant truly understand, but can only get a faint idea of. C.S. Lewis summed it up well in Mere Christianity when he said:On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures.On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In Gods dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube.Of course, we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint of something super-personal something more than a person.http://biblestudyplanet.com/the-trin...ld-testament/I will continue with your other points another time. I hope you will appreciate that this is the period of Lent and a holy time for Christians, I have other demands on my time.Peace to you.

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Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

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Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?