Thread: Facts about Christianity ???!!!!!!!

Your claims are all very well, but you have no real proof that anything has been added or subtracted to the bible in such a way as to change its core message. Why would you be puzzled to find verses referring to One God and also the Trinity in the same book? Is it because as you understand it the trinity represents three gods? This is your error of comprehension, maybe because the Quran has given you a rather muddled view of the trinity and implies it means three separate gods.. (If this is an incorrect assumption on my part I ask your forgiveness) yet Christians never did believe in three gods.. There has only ever been ONE God. So there is really no contradiction as you believe there to be.

You are of course free to interpret things how you wish, although I'm not sure why you feel the onus is on yourself to prove false the sacred scriptures of others. We don't ask you to believe any of it.. :)

Peace.

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Originally Posted by pandora

there are many references to the trinity. My internet is very slow so I really can't be posting them all so I hope you don't mind if I give you a link to a website that lists some of them. Bear in mind that the Bible canon was not decided at the council of Nicea. Also the concept of the trinity is unique and is not the same concept as pagan ideologies weather they be Egyptian or Greek or Roman or anything else for that matter. Of course if it makes you happy to believe otherwise then of course you are free to do so.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

Peace.

--Let me show you what the western scholars say about trinity and the bible :
** David Jenkin—a Bishop says:- “Some of the Bible statements are not strictly true but were added later (by Paul and by early Christians - only to express their exaggerated faith in him.”
Testament One and Testament Two do not have the following notions. Only writings of Paul has. They are Trinity, son of God, Begotten son (now this word is removed from later editions of Bible), original sin, Jesus died for your sins, God made flesh, Jesus the perfect god and perfect man, sin and atonement, redemption, For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life, Death through Adam and life through Christ, Righteousness through faith, Dead to sin and alive in Jesus, Life through the spirit, Through the grace of our Lord, Christ is the end of the law, The whole world is a prisoner of sin, In him we have redemption through his blood- the forgiveness of sins, raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at His right hand of heavenly realm, for it is by grace you have been saved- through faith, you die with Adam and live with Christ. This (Jesus) is my (God’s) son— whom I love, with him I am well pleased. I am the Alpha and Omega etc.
**. John Hick Professor said:- “To say that the historical Jesus of Nazareth was also GOD is as devoid of meaning as to say that a circle is also a square.”
** Paul Victor Weir Wille said:- “To say that Jesus Christ is not GOD. It does not degrade Jesus Christ. It absolves him of falsehood alleged to him. It simply elevates ONE TRUE GOD.”
** Huston Smith said:- “To say that Jesus was fully GOD and fully man is paradoxical (seemingly absurd or Self-contradictory). It is a blatant contradiction.”
** Randolph Ross said:- “Trinity is impossible to demonstrate and impossible to understand. It is against the Laws of Nature. Impossible to the rules of logic, human wisdom and intellect. Two plus two do not make five or three. Saying Trinity is like that you understand that a circle is also a square. It is mathematically incorrect and geometrically impossible.”
** . Clement a Christian Religious Scholar said:- “This state of religious scenario (i.e. Monotheism of Jesus verses Trinity of Paul) continued to exist till 70 A.D. This period was a period of fierce struggle between the two forms of Christianity- the Judeo Christianity and the Paulinic Christianity. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem fell to Roman Emperor Titus. So under such disturbed conditions the Paulinic form of Christianity” won. Thereafter the situation reversed and Paul won a victory over Judeo Christianity of Jesus. This victory was not a mandate from GOD but it was through the ignorance and weakness of their faith in the teachings of Jesus. Paul took a path, which was clearly against the Divine Law. Jesus while biding his time in heaven must be lamenting over the conduct and behaviour of his followers. Surely Jesus is the most unfortunate of all messengers of GOD who has been grossly misunderstood.”
** Vladimir Lenin said:- How powerless is the GOD of Christendom! He cannot even forgive a man without shedding the blood of his own son

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Originally Posted by عثمان أحمد الشيخ

--Let me show you what the western scholars say about trinity and the bible :
** David Jenkin—a Bishop says:- “Some of the Bible statements are not strictly true but were added later (by Paul and by early Christians - only to express their exaggerated faith in him.”
Testament One and Testament Two do not have the following notions. Only writings of Paul has. They are Trinity, son of God, Begotten son (now this word is removed from later editions of Bible), original sin, Jesus died for your sins, God made flesh, Jesus the perfect god and perfect man, sin and atonement, redemption, For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life, Death through Adam and life through Christ, Righteousness through faith, Dead to sin and alive in Jesus, Life through the spirit, Through the grace of our Lord, Christ is the end of the law, The whole world is a prisoner of sin, In him we have redemption through his blood- the forgiveness of sins, raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at His right hand of heavenly realm, for it is by grace you have been saved- through faith, you die with Adam and live with Christ. This (Jesus) is my (God’s) son— whom I love, with him I am well pleased. I am the Alpha and Omega etc.
**. John Hick Professor said:- “To say that the historical Jesus of Nazareth was also GOD is as devoid of meaning as to say that a circle is also a square.”
** Paul Victor Weir Wille said:- “To say that Jesus Christ is not GOD. It does not degrade Jesus Christ. It absolves him of falsehood alleged to him. It simply elevates ONE TRUE GOD.”
** Huston Smith said:- “To say that Jesus was fully GOD and fully man is paradoxical (seemingly absurd or Self-contradictory). It is a blatant contradiction.”
** Randolph Ross said:- “Trinity is impossible to demonstrate and impossible to understand. It is against the Laws of Nature. Impossible to the rules of logic, human wisdom and intellect. Two plus two do not make five or three. Saying Trinity is like that you understand that a circle is also a square. It is mathematically incorrect and geometrically impossible.”
** . Clement a Christian Religious Scholar said:- “This state of religious scenario (i.e. Monotheism of Jesus verses Trinity of Paul) continued to exist till 70 A.D. This period was a period of fierce struggle between the two forms of Christianity- the Judeo Christianity and the Paulinic Christianity. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem fell to Roman Emperor Titus. So under such disturbed conditions the Paulinic form of Christianity” won. Thereafter the situation reversed and Paul won a victory over Judeo Christianity of Jesus. This victory was not a mandate from GOD but it was through the ignorance and weakness of their faith in the teachings of Jesus. Paul took a path, which was clearly against the Divine Law. Jesus while biding his time in heaven must be lamenting over the conduct and behaviour of his followers. Surely Jesus is the most unfortunate of all messengers of GOD who has been grossly misunderstood.”
** Vladimir Lenin said:- How powerless is the GOD of Christendom! He cannot even forgive a man without shedding the blood of his own son

I do not understand what you are trying to prove by this information.. Apart from the fact the world is full of people of differing opinions and many like to express them. What to you defines a "Christian scholar"? Or even a "western scholar" and why do you believe their opinion is necessarily correct? Maybe because you believe it kind of proves your point. Well, it doesn't really. The first name you chose I have heard of Bishop David Jenkins I found an article that you may find of interest on "heretical vicars".. Being a vicar, at least in the Anglican Church does not mean that person is particularly holy, Right and always speaks truth.. They are but mortal men and like all other sinners will answer for their sins before God at the judgement.

Honestly, do you think I could not find if I wished to trawl the internet many "Islamic scholars" that would have differing opinions about Islam. Or even ex muslims who would speak of their dissatisfaction with the truth of Islam? For what purpose? Sorry I would not wish to waste my time, and you should not waste yours in similar pursuits. If God would wish me to believe another truth then God will show me. It's simples.. I put my trust and faith in God alone.

Here's the article...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm

Peace.

Yes we have difference in opinion between our scholars, but be careful, the differences in opinion are about, I can say, secondary cases or less important concerns and issues. But our main doctrines and believes are stable and fixed they all agree upon. The case with your Christianity is different many of your theologians have different views to Trinity or Resurrection which are your religion main doctrines, which are still disputable and debatable.

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Honestly, do you think I could not find if I wished to trawl the internet many "Islamic scholars" that would have differing opinions about Islam.

Peace to you...

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Originally Posted by pandora

I do not understand what you are trying to prove by this information.. Apart from the fact the world is full of people of differing opinions and many like to express them. What to you defines a "Christian scholar"? Or even a "western scholar" and why do you believe their opinion is necessarily correct? Maybe because you believe it kind of proves your point. Well, it doesn't really. The first name you chose I have heard of Bishop David Jenkins I found an article that you may find of interest on "heretical vicars".. Being a vicar, at least in the Anglican Church does not mean that person is particularly holy, Right and always speaks truth.. They are but mortal men and like all other sinners will answer for their sins before God at the judgement.

Honestly, do you think I could not find if I wished to trawl the internet many "Islamic scholars" that would have differing opinions about Islam. Or even ex muslims who would speak of their dissatisfaction with the truth of Islam? For what purpose? Sorry I would not wish to waste my time, and you should not waste yours in similar pursuits. If God would wish me to believe another truth then God will show me. It's simples.. I put my trust and faith in God alone.

Here's the article...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm

Peace.

Excuse me pandora.

You are in a dangerous situation .Trinity is not found in the Holy Bible . Believing that the Almighty God is three persons in one or one in three persons is a blasphemy and it is a big insult to Almighty God . Also you will inherit your children if you have blasphemy .Most of your faith is not from the Bible.You take your faith from the priests . come back to the sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Follow only the instructions of Jesus himself. You are worshipping a man as me and you .If you insist on your resent faith. you will not get paradise. God is one .He has no wife, no partner, no son ,no one has seen him,no one has heard his voice.You are free to believe or not believe. If all the people of that world are believers ,they will not benifit God anything and if they all are unbelievers that will not harm God anything..Please little mind.

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Originally Posted by عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Excuse me pandora.

You are in a dangerous situation .Trinity is not found in the Holy Bible . Believing that the Almighty God is three persons in one or one in three persons is a blasphemy and it is a big insult to Almighty God . Also you will inherit your children if you have blasphemy .Most of your faith is not from the Bible.You take your faith from the priests . come back to the sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Follow only the instructions of Jesus himself. You are worshipping a man as me and you .If you insist on your resent faith. you will not get paradise. God is one .He has no wife, no partner, no son ,no one has seen him,no one has heard his voice.You are free to believe or not believe. If all the people of that world are believers ,they will not benifit God anything and if they all are unbelievers that will not harm God anything..Please little mind.

I am only in a dangerous position according to your belief... Not my own. How dare you imply I believe God had a wife or son or even partners. That is blasphemy and you are guilty of it not I. :( for that is your understanding not mine. Do not measure me my your own lack of understanding of my belief. What are you talking about my children???? My children only inherit my genes everything else is there own. Never place yourself on a par with Christ Jesus you as a sinful man / woman are not able to stand in His shoes.. There is no comparison. Without Christ you are dead in your sins. :(

I cannot accept Islam with all the inconsistencies it presents to me. I chose to put my trust and faith in God... Never in the opinions of men. Take your faith from priests??? What a statement..!! I take my faith from God alone I am nothing but Gods humble servant and all I am and all I do I do by His divine will. I feel here you are trying to convert me to believe as you do, shameful!! And I am sorry for that because it means dialogue must end and I have enjoyed talking with you. :(

i wish you well on your chosen path. Btw.. Would the moderator who deleted my post not care to offer an explanation as to the reason why. If it was in any way offensive to your sensibilities I will offer an apology as it is not my intention to cause offence. It can be by PM if I am allowed that facility or whatever.

Peace

Dear pandora,
If you read history , you will discover that trinity (that strange concept that no one in the world even priests can explain it) was accepted only in the Council of Nicea in the year 325 where they declared Jesus as a god for the first time.and changed the day of Saturday with the day of Sunday compliment King Constantine who was worshipping the sun.The holy spirit was accepted as a god in the year 381.The councils became the factory that makes Gods.. Christ himself has never been known of trinity and trinity was never mentioned in the Bible .It was a pagan idea in previous nations. And then rolled distortion with new concepts such as the idea of ​​ incarnation of God in the womb of a woman and the ​​original sin idea .Also the idea of ​​baptism by water, women and men naked in one place and the idea that Christ came only to be crucified on the cross and the idea of ​​worshiping the cross and eat the Lord's body and drink his blood .The strange thing that all these ideas are not found in the bible.They are the commandment of pope and priests .Not the commandment of God as Jesus said.There are many myths in Christianity and I ask my Christian brothers and sisters where are your minds .In the day of gudgment nothing will benefit you except your deeds ,your belief and your heart.So consult your heart even all people consulted you..And remember that we are guists on that land,and we will leave it soon or later.What will you offer for hereafter.

Quote

Originally Posted by pandora

Your claims are all very well, but you have no real proof that anything has been added or subtracted to the bible in such a way as to change its core message. Why would you be puzzled to find verses referring to One God and also the Trinity in the same book? Is it because as you understand it the trinity represents three gods? This is your error of comprehension, maybe because the Quran has given you a rather muddled view of the trinity and implies it means three separate gods.. (If this is an incorrect assumption on my part I ask your forgiveness) yet Christians never did believe in three gods.. There has only ever been ONE God. So there is really no contradiction as you believe there to be.

You are of course free to interpret things how you wish, although I'm not sure why you feel the onus is on yourself to prove false the sacred scriptures of others. We don't ask you to believe any of it.. :)

Peace.

Dear pandora,
If you read history , you will discover that trinity (that strange concept that no one in the world even priests can explain it) was accepted only in the Council of Nicea in the year 325 where they declared Jesus as a god for the first time.and changed the day of Saturday with the day of Sunday compliment King Constantine who was worshipping the sun.The holy spirit was accepted as a god in the year 381.The councils became the factory that makes Gods.. Christ himself has never been known of trinity and trinity was never mentioned in the Bible .It was a pagan idea in previous nations. And then rolled distortion with new concepts such as the idea of ​​ incarnation of God in the womb of a woman and the ​​original sin idea .Also the idea of ​​baptism by water, women and men naked in one place and the idea that Christ came only to be crucified on the cross and the idea of ​​worshiping the cross and eat the Lord's body and drink his blood .The strange thing that all these ideas are not found in the bible.They are the commandment of pope and priests .Not the commandment of God as Jesus said.There are many myths in Christianity and I ask my Christian brothers and sisters where are your minds .In the day of gudgment nothing will benefit you except your deeds ,your belief and your heart.So consult your heart even all people consulted you..And remember that we are guists on that land,and we will leave it soon or later.What will you offer for hereafter.

Why Trinity is impossible?
Along side with Crucifixion, Atonement and Redemption Trinity is also debatable and disputable?


There is no evidence or fact to support it. But there are evidences and facts which opposes it.

Bible never spokes about Trinity. All "facts" from Bible are assertions not facts.

It does not make sense.

It is absent in Old Testament.

The word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible.

Reason 4 : "The Doctrine of Trinity" is not found in the Bible.

10 Reasons the Crucifixion Story Makes No Sense



Does God exist? You wouldn't think so given the bizarre crucifixion story.I’m afraid that the crucifixion story doesn’t strike me as that big a deal.

The Christian will say that death by crucifixion was a horrible, humiliating way to die. That the death of Jesus was a tremendous sacrifice, more noble and selfless than a person sacrificing himself for the benefit of a butterfly. And isn’t it worth praising something that gets us into heaven?

Here are ten reasons why I’m unimpressed.

1. Sure, death sucks, but why single out this one? Lots of people die. In fact, lots died from crucifixion. The death of one man doesn’t make all the others insignificant. Was Jesus not a man but actually a god? If so, that fact has yet to be shown.

It’s not like this death is dramatically worse than death today. Crucifixion may no longer be a worry, but cancer is. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer.

2. What about that whole hell thing? An eternity of torment for even a single person makes Jesus’s agony insignificant by comparison, and it counts for nothing when you consider the billions that are apparently going to hell.

3. Jesus didn’t even die. The absurdity of the story, of course, is the resurrection. If Jesus died, there’s no miraculous resurrection, and if there’s a resurrection, there’s no sacrifice through death. Miracle or sacrifice—you can’t have it both ways. The gospels don’t say that he died for our sins but that he had a rough couple of days for our sins.

4. Taking on the sin vs. removal of sin aren’t symmetric. We didn’t do anything to get original sin. We just inherited it from Adam. So why do we have to do anything to get the redemption? If God demands a sacrifice, he got it. That’s enough. Why the requirement to believe to access the solution?

5. The reason behind the sacrifice—mankind’s original sin—makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake?

And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

6. Jesus made a sacrifice—big deal. Jesus is perfect, so his doing something noble is like water flowing downhill. It’s unremarkable since he’s only acting out his nature. What else would you expect from a perfect being?

But imagine if I sacrificed myself for someone. In the right circumstance, I’d risk my life for a stranger—or at least I hope I would. That kind of sacrifice is very different. A selfish, imperfect man acting against his nature to make the ultimate unselfish sacrifice is far more remarkable than a perfect being acting according to his nature, and yet people make sacrifices for others all the time. So why single out the actions of Jesus? Aren’t everyday noble actions by ordinary people more remarkable and laudable?

7. What is left for God to forgive? The Jesus story says that we’ve sinned against God (a debt). Let’s look at two resolutions to this debt.

(1) God could forgive the debt of sin. You and I are asked to forgive wrongs done against us, so why can’t God? Some Christians say that to forgive would violate God’s sense of justice, but when one person forgives another’s debt, there’s no violation of justice. For unspecified reasons, God doesn’t like this route.

And that leaves (2) where Jesus pays for our sin. But we need to pick 1 or 2, not both. If Jesus paid the debt, there’s no need for God’s forgiveness. There’s no longer anything for God to forgive, since there’s no outstanding debt.

Here’s an everyday example: when I pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment?

8. The Jesus story isn’t even remarkable within mythology. Jesus’s sacrifice was small compared to the Greek god Prometheus, who stole fire from Olympus and gave it to humanity. Zeus discovered the crime and punished Prometheus by chaining him to a rock so that a vulture could eat his liver. Each night, his liver grew back and the next day the vulture would return, day after agonizing day. The gospel story, where Jesus is crucified once and then pops back into existence several days later, is unimpressive by comparison.

9. The Bible itself rejects God’s savage “justice.” This is the 21st century. Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice? If God loves us deeply and he wants to forgive us, couldn’t he just … forgive us? That’s how we do it, and that’s the lesson we get from the parable of the Prodigal Son where the father forgives the son even after being wronged by him. If that’s the standard of mercy, why can’t God follow it? Since God is so much greater a being than a human, wouldn’t he be that much more understanding and willing to forgive?

If we were to twist the Prodigal Son parable to match the crucifixion story, the father might demand that the innocent son be flogged to pay for the crime of the prodigal son. Where’s the logic in that?

10. The entire story is incoherent. Let’s try to stumble through the drunken logic behind the Jesus story.

God made mankind imperfect and inherently vulnerable to sin. Living a sinless life is impossible, so hell becomes unavoidable. That is, God creates people knowing for certain that they’re going to deserve eternity in hell when they die. Why create people that he knew would be destined for eternal torment?

But don’t worry—God sacrificed Jesus, one of the persons of God, so mankind could go to heaven instead.

So God sacrificed himself to himself so we could bypass a rule that God made himself and that God deliberately designed us to never be able to meet? I can’t even understand that; I certainly feel no need to praise God for something so nonsensical. It’s like an abused wife thanking her abuser. We can just as logically curse God for consigning us to hell from birth.