Misconception clear up about Islam

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Misconception clear up about Islam

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Thread: Misconception clear up about Islam

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    . The problem is , you thought that since Alexander the great was gay - And I'm not sure if that's true or not - and that he was Thu Al-Qarnain , then Quran actually doesn't criticize Sodomy .
    This is not what i meant, i thought if Alexander the Great was mentioned in the holy Koran and he was not criticized for being gay, then why does the holy Koran talked about Sodomy as a sin when Alexander the Great was mentioned in the holy Koran and described as a great leader but might have possibly had relations with Hephaestion. What I'm saying is that why does the holy Koran talk so highly about a homosexual when the holy Koran says that Sodomy is a sin in which Alexander the Great possibly committed this sin. This argument is now invalid because i wrongly accused Thu Al-Qarnayn as Alexander the Great.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Those who doubted that the Earth was flat had evidences it was a sphere . They didn't doubt it JUST for doubt . But on the other hand , saying that Earth was flat was also something which needed proof . As I know , most have said that Earth which is "Ground" is flat as wee see , but when it comes to the whole planet they used to say "God knows" . Am I clear ?
    As Humans, we tend to believe what we see; such as the earth being flat because it looks flat or the sun revolves around us because it looks like it revolves. The church was so sure of this fact that they even put it in the bible. but there are those who doubted this "fact" not just because they want to go against society or anything but because they found evidence to prove this "fact" wrong. So everyone thought that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth because seeing is believing, and everyone believed this "fact" making it a "Clear Fact" but Copernicus and Galileo doubted this fact because they have evidence to doubt their fact. (hopefully i did not confuse you) so I'm not doubting homosexuality a sin because I'm just doubting it, I'm trying to persuade you that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality with the evidence that i have that is why i am mentioning the Ancient Greek era.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Saying that something is right just because people agree to it is invalid
    Saying something is right just because people agree to it is valid, this determines right and wrong. For example imagine millions of people agree that the night sky happens because the night god killed the sun god, turning day into night and the sun god killed the night god, making night into day. With millions of people agreeing to this "logic" it must be true right? Yes because a lot of people agreed to this, a very sad but true world we live in. Now for a realistic example; Hitler convinced MANY people that Jewish people are bad because they are the reason that the Germans lost WWI and thus creating the holocaust(Of course this was not true). Why did he do this? because he made many people believe that Jews are bad. If saying that something is right just because people agree to it is invalid. Then the holocaust would not happen. Its a very unfortunate thing but if a group of people think its valid and a smaller group thinks its invalid, then the larger group over powers the smaller one.

    So back to the Ancient Greek topic. As you might have herd Ancient Greek has ruled this world for many many years from 800 AD until 600 BC, That's more then 1000 years and there was nothing wrong with homosexuality until the Christians came and burned everything and declared that homosexuality is a sin. So my question to you is that why was homosexuality accepted for about 500 years minimum during the Ancient Greek era? (Note: This question only applies to the fact that God has been with us since the beginning of man.)
    Even if the Christians did not burn down everything and the Greek's knowledge, culture, and everything else was passed down from generation to generation, would the world still think that homosexuality is still wrong? Remember Ancient China also accepted homosexuality and of course theses ancient cultures did have rules and regulations on homosexuality.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  2. #22
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    Saying something is right just because people agree to it is valid, this determines right and wrong. For example imagine millions of people agree that the night sky happens because the night god killed the sun god, turning day into night and the sun god killed the night god, making night into day. With millions of people agreeing to this "logic" it must be true right? Yes because a lot of people agreed to this, a very sad but true world we live in. Now for a realistic example; Hitler convinced MANY people that Jewish people are bad because they are the reason that the Germans lost WWI and thus creating the holocaust(Of course this was not true). Why did he do this? because he made many people believe that Jews are bad. If saying that something is right just because people agree to it is invalid. Then the holocaust would not happen. Its a very unfortunate thing but if a group of people think its valid and a smaller group thinks its invalid, then the larger group over powers the smaller one.
    According to what you just said , anything can be right since people agree to it . Rape can be moral if people say so , sex with animals can be right because people say so , killing can be right because people say so . My mate , this is no way to determine what's right and wrong . And if you want to take people's tolerance of homosexuality as evidence that it is alright then you shouldn't object since Muslims see it wrong .
    Quote
    So back to the Ancient Greek topic. As you might have herd Ancient Greek has ruled this world for many many years from 800 AD until 600 BC, That's more then 1000 years and there was nothing wrong with homosexuality until the Christians came and burned everything and declared that homosexuality is a sin.
    Again , what does this have to do with anything ? First of all . Can you really say that NOBODY saw homosexuality as a sin through the world ? You said Greece . That has nothing to do with it . If what you said is true then they are the same as the people of Sodom .
    Quote
    So my question to you is that why was homosexuality accepted for about 500 years minimum during the Ancient Greek era? (Note: This question only applies to the fact that God has been with us since the beginning of man.)
    I find it an odd question actually . But to answer you , it's because people have gone astray from the teachings of the messengers God sent . Here's a question from me : Why did the most of the world consider homosexuality as a crime throughout history ?
    So to cut it short , I don't see what's your point in mentioning nations which agreed to homosexuality . If that's an evidence then the sun could be made of cotton candy if people say so !
    I'd like to clear something up . It seems you're mixed between two things . There is a difference between people saying that something exists or that its characteristics are as they describe , I'm saying , there's a difference between that case and between people saying what's right or wrong . Even if all the people of the world say that the moon is full of gardens and rivers the fact remains that it's a desert . But when it comes to morals you're saying that right and wrong are defined by what people agree on . That is incorrect . For example , there are countries allowing prostitution and allow making organizations for it . There are countries allowing prostitution but don't allow organizations . And there are countries banning both . So how do we declare who's right and who's wrong ? As I said , people agreeing to something doesn't make it right .

    Now , to the second part of my reply .
    In Islam , having a fetish or desire for something wrong isn't a sin itself . For example , if someone thinks of stealing something but he backed down then he hasn't commit a sin . The sin is to DO the act . And saying that (it's someone's DNA or biological traits what makes him do something and therefore he isn't to be blamed) is invalid as well . Otherwise , psychopathics shouldn't be punished !

    God knows best

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Anything can be right since people agree to it . Rape can be moral if people say so , sex with animals can be right because people say so , killing can be right because people say so . My mate , this is no way to determine what's right and wrong. And if you want to take people's tolerance of homosexuality as evidence that it is alright then you shouldn't object since Muslims see it wrong .
    Yes, Anything can be right since people agree to it. Just look at Hitler, he convinced people that Jews were bad and a lot of people believed him and thus killing six million Jew. Why did they not just stop killing the Jews at 500, 100, or even 50? and well honestly those people did not know the difference between what was morally right and what was morally wrong but they just kept killing and killing......why? Because they thought what Hitler said was true. But now today we know now that this event was one of the worst things that happen in human history. With this example numbers are always in power. One person cannot conquer a bear but with many can conquer and entire nation.( That's kind of how i see this world ) Yeah rape, sex with animals, and killing can be right IF the mass of people agree to this, it is unfortunate but this is the world we live in. It may not be right to us in our eyes, but in the MASS of people that do see rape, sex with animals, and killing as a morally right thing to do then what are we suppose to do? Look at the world today, there are many protests going on right now as we speak, you think a one man band will make a difference in these protests, absolutely not but with with 100,000 people yeah they might even rewrite history.

    And yeah shouldn't object because Muslims see it wrong but i just feel that homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of. Yes there are certain deadly diseases when having relations with the same sex, but when you are trying to pursue happiness and prosperity you do whatever you can to achieve the highest happiness and keep that happiness until death. With the world we live in right now.... why not? why not look for happiness, if that means being homosexual then so be it.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Again , what does this have to do with anything ? First of all . Can you really say that NOBODY saw homosexuality as a sin through the world ? You said Greece . That has nothing to do with it . If what you said is true then they are the same as the people of Sodom .
    Its not country Greece itself but the people in Greece, civilians, warriors, philosophers, emperors. Yes, it is true that i cannot say that nobody saw homosexuality as a sin though out the world, but what i could say is that one of the greatest empires the world has ever seen tolerated homosexuality and also one of the oldest civilizations also tolerated homosexuality. That is almost half of the world(maybe a bit exaggerated) and this is before the time of Christianity and Islam . I do not know what other countries thought about homosexuality but if i had to make an estimate i would probably say that the rest of the world did not really care and that it was just a sexual preference, yeah some might disagree on homosexuality maybe even more then i thought, but if the Ancient Greeks and Ancient Chinese tolerated homosexuality then imagine what other ancient civilization thought about homosexuality.(Note: These civilizations were not yet exposed to the teachings of Christianity and Islam).

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    I find it an odd question actually . But to answer you , it's because people have gone astray from the teachings of the messengers God sent . Here's a question from me : Why did the most of the world consider homosexuality as a crime throughout history?
    The answer to your question is that the reason why most of the world considered homosexuality as a crime throughout history was because the Christians declared this a sin and spread all of their teachings throughout the world. And now being gay is wrong. Christianity has influenced everything from what we eat, to what to say when we sneeze. I think that Christianity is the reason why homosexuality is considered a crime throughout the world now. That is my theory.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    But when it comes to morals you're saying that right and wrong are defined by what people agree on . That is incorrect . For example , there are countries allowing prostitution and allow making organizations for it . There are countries allowing prostitution but don't allow organizations . And there are countries banning both . So how do we declare who's right and who's wrong ? As I said , people agreeing to something doesn't make it right.
    Yes, there are countries that do all those stuff but this is related to government and people honestly don't really have a say in the matter(maybe a tiny bit), even in the USA. Just look at North Korea making bombs and starving their people, most of the world wants North Korea stop all of this but they are not doing anything just making more bombs.
    For the question of declaring who's right and who's wrong i really don't know. I would like to say that it is the people who determines what is right and wrong but with this example i am really not sure. But there are examples where people agreeing to something does make it right.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Now , to the second part of my reply .
    In Islam , having a fetish or desire for something wrong isn't a sin itself . For example , if someone thinks of stealing something but he backed down then he hasn't commit a sin . The sin is to DO the act . And saying that (it's someone's DNA or biological traits what makes him do something and therefore he isn't to be blamed) is invalid as well . Otherwise , psychopathics shouldn't be punished !
    I do agree with you on that.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  4. #24
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    We are to God and to him we return !
    My mate , your statements are shocking !
    Quote
    Yes, Anything can be right since people agree to it.
    When you agree to this thought , all the meanings of humanity collapse . It makes us nothing different from machines . No standards , no morals , and nothing to determine what's right or wrong . My mate , according to your statement , if the majority of your people want to attempt suicide and kill those who don't want to then you should just agree because it's the majority ! According to your statement , what's right today can be wrong tomorrow and what's wrong today can be right tomorrow . This is no way of living ! We are to God and to him we return !
    Quote
    And yeah shouldn't object because Muslims see it wrong but i just feel that homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of. Yes there are certain deadly diseases when having relations with the same sex, but when you are trying to pursue happiness and prosperity you do whatever you can to achieve the highest happiness and keep that happiness until death. With the world we live in right now.... why not? why not look for happiness, if that means being homosexual then so be it.
    You break down your first claim with these words . Since you think people are who decide what's right or wrong , why go against it ? Since the majority of people say homosexuality is a crime , why go against it ? Why do you object about Islam deeming sodomy a sin since you say people are the ones to decide it ? We are to God and to him we return !
    Quote
    Yes, it is true that i cannot say that nobody saw homosexuality as a sin though out the world, but what i could say is that one of the greatest empires the world has ever seen tolerated homosexuality and also one of the oldest civilizations also tolerated homosexuality.
    And now you go back to the idea that majority is what matters , might is over all !
    Quote
    That is almost half of the world(maybe a bit exaggerated)
    TOO exaggerated ! And I'd like you to give us the sources of which you got all these ideas from . Although as I told you , just because Greece and China deemed it right doesn't MAKE it right .
    Quote
    I do not know what other countries thought about homosexuality but if i had to make an estimate i would probably say that the rest of the world did not really care and that it was just a sexual preference
    Evidence please ?
    Quote
    yeah some might disagree on homosexuality maybe even more then i thought, but if the Ancient Greeks and Ancient Chinese tolerated homosexuality then imagine what other ancient civilization thought about homosexuality.
    This is a logical fallacy , I still can't see what do Chinese and Greeks have to do with this . If you think that since the two greatest empires in the world deemed this act ok and therefore everyone else must agree , you go against your own words again . According to this , you shouldn't object on Hitler killing the Jews because Germany was the greatest force back then !
    Quote
    The answer to your question is that the reason why most of the world considered homosexuality as a crime throughout history was because the Christians declared this a sin and spread all of their teachings throughout the world. And now being gay is wrong. Christianity has influenced everything from what we eat, to what to say when we sneeze. I think that Christianity is the reason why homosexuality is considered a crime throughout the world now. That is my theory.
    With due respect , your theory isn't backed up by evidence and doesn't make a difference even if true . If it is , why object on Christians saying this is a sin since they are the majority ? Might is over all . Since they said it's wrong , it HAS to be wrong .
    Quote
    Yes, there are countries that do all those stuff but this is related to government and people honestly don't really have a say in the matter(maybe a tiny bit), even in the USA.
    Haven't you said the majority is the one to decide ?!
    Quote
    Just look at North Korea making bombs and starving their people, most of the world wants North Korea stop all of this but they are not doing anything just making more bombs.
    Well , since they aren't doing anything then they DON'T want this to end . Therefore , Korea killing its people must be moral !
    God helps .

  5. #25
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    When you agree to this thought , all the meanings of humanity collapse . It makes us nothing different from machines . No standards , no morals , and nothing to determine what's right or wrong .
    I don't think he wants to say this; he is trying to claim that what people think is right and agree to it, so it's right according to them and their point of view.

    Is this right vietazn325 ?

    If not So Hitler have to be right killing 150,000 Homosexuals in Nazi Holocaust !!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by الدعم الفني View Post


    I don't think he wants to say this; he is trying to claim that what people think is right and agree to it, so it's right according to them and their point of view.

    Is this right vietazn325 ?

    If not So Hitler have to be right killing 150,000 Homosexuals in Nazi Holocaust !!
    Yes, This is correct. What is a plan when no one will support it? For example if no one supported Hitler then the Holocaust would not happen not. Would you still think the Holocaust would still happen if there was little to no people supporting him? It would probably be highly unlikely.

    What my dear friend is looking at is the most extreme case in which it could probably happen IF people agree to it. And yeah it could happen like that IF we did live in a world where people would say "its okay to kill other people" or some other extreme conditions.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    When you agree to this thought , all the meanings of humanity collapse . It makes us nothing different from machines . No standards , no morals , and nothing to determine what's right or wrong . .
    Yeah, this could happen, but humanity is still here and will not collapse anytime soon, but in a world with extreme conditions like that i would assume that we would all be dead. But in our world, we do have morals and standards. I know its bad to kill, i know that its wrong to kick a baby, and i know that i should not run a red lights. And you would probably know that those things are bad to, along with everyone else reading this. If we all did not agree and it is okay to kill, kick babies, and run red lights then yeah humanity has collapse, every standard, and morals we have has been thrown out the window. We as humans know what right and what wrong besides controversial topics such as homosexuality, religion, science and many other more. Yes, humanity could collapse if what i said were to happen, but this only applies to extreme cases in which will probably never happen.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    You break down your first claim with these words . Since you think people are who decide what's right or wrong , why go against it ? Since the majority of people say homosexuality is a crime , why go against it ? Why do you object about Islam deeming sodomy a sin since you say people are the ones to decide it ? We are to God and to him we return !
    But there are more followers that believe homosexuality is not a crime. Recently in California, they allowed gay couples to marry one another. Support for gay relations is gaining ground about 50% of Americans do support gay marriage and maybe right now(unsure) half of the world would support homosexuality. But right now it is probably less then that, maybe 30% of the world or so. I never said to give up on your beliefs. Although if what you believe is out numbered by people that do not support your cause then all you can do is just convince people to support your cause and gain as much people as you can so they so can spread the word.
    What your saying is that if the majority of the people do not support your cause and your the only one supporting it then might as well give up and join the party, this is not what i meant to say. If people did give up then convincing people that killing is good would be as easy as 1.....2.....3.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...ights/2479541/ (American Gay support)

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    And I'd like you to give us the sources of which you got all these ideas from . Although as I told you , just because Greece and China deemed it right doesn't MAKE it right .
    http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=130 (China) (might contain 1 image that might be disturbing for some)
    http://www.religionfacts.com/homosex...ent_greeks.htm (Greeks)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charle...b_1677851.html ( Native Americans )
    http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com...nd-homophobia/ (This one has ALOT of info.)
    http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ation-offences (India)
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/homosexuality-iii (Persia)

    Not only did ancient China and Greece tolerated homosexuality but also many other ancient civilizations

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    With due respect , your theory isn't backed up by evidence and doesn't make a difference even if true . If it is , why object on Christians saying this is a sin since they are the majority ? Might is over all . Since they said it's wrong , it HAS to be wrong .
    None taken, i actually like it when people object to my theory hahaha and i very much enjoy this argument, you make very interesting statements that makes me question about my beliefs . Now it is true that the Christians did conquer the great Greeks but this is how i see every civilization; so imagine that you are building a giant tower and time after time you keep building higher and higher, as you build higher and higher the tower will get heavier and heavier and pretty soon the bottom of the tower cannot withstand the weight of the tower and it collapses.
    The Greeks were already in a mess due to the constant wars with each other and was bound to fall and so the spread of Christianity was set. If it Has to be wrong then why did God allow homosexual acts during the ancient times for a thousand years or so? Would this suggests that humans were the one that claimed that homosexuality is wrong?

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Haven't you said the majority is the one to decide ?!
    Yes i did say that majority is one that decides but I'm not a very political man and i don't know how much influence the people have on the government. But i believe that here in the U.S our government is corrupted because of the power they have, in which we all know power corrupts especially when it comes to money. but look at Egypt, the people just won. They kicked Mohamed Morsi out of power and all because the people wanted him out, the people decided that they did not want him anymore and they got what they wanted.


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by نصير الدين View Post
    Well , since they aren't doing anything then they DON'T want this to end . Therefore , Korea killing its people must be moral !
    Of course they don't want to end it, they think that the more weapons they have the more powerful they become, although this is true the power of the people is more powerful then any weapon on earth. These people in North Korea are forced to bow and obey their "supreme leader" Whatever hes says the people will believe, they have no choice, its either believe or die. If their "supreme leader" says that its okay to kill people then they would probably think its okay since he said it. Theses people of North Korea probably see him as God, whatever he says goes.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    Yeah, this could happen, but humanity is still here and will not collapse anytime soon, but in a world with extreme conditions like that i would assume that we would all be dead. But in our world, we do have morals and standards. I know its bad to kill, i know that its wrong to kick a baby, and i know that i should not run a red lights. And you would probably know that those things are bad to, along with everyone else reading this. If we all did not agree and it is okay to kill, kick babies, and run red lights then yeah humanity has collapse, every standard, and morals we have has been thrown out the window. We as humans know what right and what wrong besides controversial topics such as homosexuality, religion, science and many other more. Yes, humanity could collapse if what i said were to happen, but this only applies to extreme cases in which will probably never happen.
    I repeat the question : By what standards do you decide what's right or wrong ? Are morals changeable ? Can a crime become right tomorrow ?
    Quote
    But there are more followers that believe homosexuality is not a crime. Recently in California, they allowed gay couples to marry one another. Support for gay relations is gaining ground about 50% of Americans do support gay marriage and maybe right now(unsure) half of the world would support homosexuality. But right now it is probably less then that, maybe 30% of the world or so. I never said to give up on your beliefs. Although if what you believe is out numbered by people that do not support your cause then all you can do is just convince people to support your cause and gain as much people as you can so they so can spread the word.
    First of all , from what I see , 99% of the Islamic world - 1.8 billions - view it as a crime . That's almost 25% . I greatly doubt that those who support homosexuality around the world reach 50% . And if they did , I ask you again : What are the standards you'll use to say who's right or wrong ? Let's suppose they are really 50% , the other 50% opposes them . So how do we determine who's right ?
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    What your saying is that if the majority of the people do not support your cause and your the only one supporting it then might as well give up and join the party, this is not what i meant to say. If people did give up then convincing people that killing is good would be as easy as 1.....2.....3.
    Why not ?! If you're the only one then why go against 99.999999999999999% of mankind ?! What makes you think you're right and all of them are wrong ? Do you get what I mean ? Majority or agreeing to something is no way to deem it right or wrong .
    According to what I read about Persia , this was in the poetry of some individuals and not the whole nation . And as I said earlier :
    "Although as I told you , just because Greece and China deemed it right doesn't MAKE it right ."
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    If it Has to be wrong then why did God allow homosexual acts during the ancient times for a thousand years or so? Would this suggests that humans were the one that claimed that homosexuality is wrong?
    Because God gives people time but he doesn't neglect them . I don't know what you may think of Christianity but in Islam God doesn't just annihilate every and any nation which does sins . He gives them time to repent AND he sends prophets and messengers to them may they repent . God is merciful , but if he punishes , he punishes with might .
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    Yes i did say that majority is one that decides but I'm not a very political man and i don't know how much influence the people have on the government. But i believe that here in the U.S our government is corrupted because of the power they have, in which we all know power corrupts especially when it comes to money.
    In this case , people are NOT the ones to decide but it is might . If one has might , he can do as he pleases and decide what's right or wrong . Therefore , it makes democracy a fairy tale . And I didn't want to get into politics because the forum clearly says - in Arabic - on the main page that politics are banned here since they are not of the forum's goals , but I just want to say that what's happening in Egypt is a farce ! The man didn't rule to begin with ! A lot went behind scenes and the rule of secularist was still going on . The people were deceived . And now they're paying the price ! All the Islamic channels were closed and the ones working in them got arrested just because they seeked to educate people . And what's with "They got what they wanted ?" Almost 50% of the people are supporting him - don't forget THEY elected him in the first place - but now they are chased by the army and police as if it's an inquisition . So as I said , it's a farce .
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    Of course they don't want to end it, they think that the more weapons they have the more powerful they become, although this is true the power of the people is more powerful then any weapon on earth. These people in North Korea are forced to bow and obey their "supreme leader" Whatever hes says the people will believe, they have no choice, its either believe or die. If their "supreme leader" says that its okay to kill people then they would probably think its okay since he said it. Theses people of North Korea probably see him as God, whatever he says goes.
    First , I meant that the Non-Koreans don't do anything and therefore they must agree with it . And again : Why do you think what he does is wrong ? The people accept it as you said so be it .

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Misconception clear up about Islam


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Misconception clear up about Islam

Misconception clear up about Islam