The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

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The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

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Thread: The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

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    Default The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

    The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam



    The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

    Sami Zaatari





    Christian missionaries know they have a big problem, and that problem is within the Bible, and that problem is with the Bible relating stories of how their supposed holy god ordered the murder and slaughter of entire towns and people.

    Christians know that when they argue against Jihad they have this big elephant right in the room, hence they try to damage control, and such is the case of James Arlandson, a writer on ***************. He has come out with an article trying to compare the wars of the Bible with the Jihad of Islam, and obviously this is a damage control effort, since he wants to make it seem that the wars of the Bible are completely just and good compared to Jihad in Islam which is evil and bad!

    So with all of that said let us see if James has managed to do a good case of damage control.

    He Wrote

    Muslim polemicists sometimes assert that Allah commanded Muhammad to fight polytheists in the same way that God commanded Moses and Joshua to fight Canaanites (Sura 2:246-251). The two situations are similar, so why would Christians and Jews complain about Islamic jihad today?



    My Response

    Actually, correction, Muslims do not say Allah commanded Muhammad to fight the none believers in the same way the Bible commanded Moses. Show any verse from the Quran where Allah told the prophet Muhammad to go kill women and children. There is a major difference in the way Allah commanded Muhammad to fight the unbelievers compared to the way the God of the Bible commanded Moses to fight. In the Bible God commanded Moses to kill the women and children:



    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 2

    32-37



    And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us



    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 3

    1-7



    1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

    So the God of the Bible told Moses to kill women and children. Let us see what Allah told us to fight for in the Quran:

    004.074


    YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).



    004.075


    YUSUFALI: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"



    So Allah in the Quran tells us to fight for the oppressed women and children, the Bible tells us to kill them!

    So James is wrong in his first assertion, Muslims do not compare the situation of Muhammad (AS) with Moses, the Bible told Moses to kill women and children, Allah told the Muslims to fight for women and children. I challenge James to bring one verse from the Quran which says to go kill women and children like the Bible does, just one. Now I would also like James to show me Muslim polemicists saying what he said:

    Muslim polemicists sometimes assert that Allah commanded Muhammad to fight polytheists in the same way that God commanded Moses and Joshua to fight Canaanites

    Can you show me those Muslims? I am not saying you invented that claim up, however so I would just like a reference to where I can find these Muslim polemicists saying that.



    He Wrote

    However, the comparison between the two cultures is completely flawed.



    My Response

    True, your Bible says kill the women and kids, my Quran says fight for the women and kids.



    He Wrote

    However, it should be pointed out, importantly, that God's best is always to do good to people, and annihilation is not the sweep of the entire Old Testament; rather, this extreme decree is used only in exceptionally rare cases, especially concerning the Canaanites.



    My Response

    Let me correct James once again. Annihilation is not a RARE case in the Bible as James said; I will quote several Bible verses showing annihilation, not only to Canaanites but to Ethiopians as well. Here are the verses and you judge for yourself if this is a RARE case:



    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 2



    32-37



    And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

    Note the verses say CITIES, in the plural, how many cities could that have been? These verses itself refute the argument that annihilation was rare, if you go and destroy cities is that something rare? If you destroyed one city then yes it would be, but from these passages we see that CITIES were destroyed.



    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 3



    1-7



    1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

    So does this sound rare to you? How many cities is that? This is enough to refute your claim that this was something rare. For the sake of the reader I will quote more passages to expose this weak claim:

    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 7



    1-6



    1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

    How many tribes is that? That is 7 nations that are about to be wiped out! Put that on top of all the other cities that have already been destroyed and you have a holocaust!



    Numbers


    Chapter 31



    7-12



    7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.



    Another massacre, does this seem to be something rare?



    Joshua
    Chapter 6



    17-27



    17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. 18 And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it. 19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD. 20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. 22 But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her. 23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. 24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. 25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. 26 And Joshua adjured them at that time, saying, Cursed be the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it. 27 So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was noised throughout all the country.



    Another massacre, hmmm yes this is something very rare. How many massacres is that now? Go count them for yourself.



    Zephaniah 2:12-15



    "You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist

    Now the Ethiopians and Assyrians are being destroyed!! So much for James saying that it was mainly Canaanites who got annihilated. As we see, Ethiopians, Assyrians, and many other tribes have been massacred. Up to 8 other races than the Canaanites have been massacred so far.



    Ezekiel 9:5-7



    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."



    Another massacre.



    Jeremiah 51:20-26



    "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.

    So it is pretty clear for all the readers to see that people being massacred and annihilated is something very normal in the Bible, it is not something rare at all! So James is guilty of miss-representing his own book.



    He Wrote



    The Hebrew Bible says:



    However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them . . . as the LORD your God has commanded you. (Deuteronomy 20:16-17, NIV)



    It must be admitted that from our perspective two thousand years after Christ came, this passage is difficult emotionally. But we must place ourselves around 1,400 years before Christ. This present article may help us to do this.



    My Response

    Yes, this passage is emotionally difficult and disturbing. Being commanded to go kill women and kids.



    He Wrote



    The Quran says:



    9:1 A release by God and His Messenger from the treaty you [believers] made with the polytheists [is announced]?2 you [polytheists] may freely move about the land for four months, but you should bear in mind both that you will not escape God, and that God will disgrace those who ignore [Him] . . . 5 When the [four] forbidden months are over, wherever you find the polytheists, kill [q-t-l] them, seize them, besiege them, ambush them?but if they turn [to God], maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful. (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004)



    Muhammad is warning polytheists that he is canceling treaties with them or letting the treaties expire according to their terms, but they will not be renewed. Hence, polytheists must either convert or be killed (q-t-l). This Arabic root means killing, warring, and slaughtering.



    This passage in the Quran comes 600 years after Christ, who showed us a better way, so the passage is doubly hard to accept.



    My Response

    This passage is doubly hard to accept? Really? Does the passage say kill women and children? So James claims that a verse that does NOT say kill women and children is more disturbing than a verse that says kill women and children!! Now I would also like to thank James for quoting Surah 9 verse 6, because the verse right after it shows how great Islam is:

    009.006
    YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

    So why didn't James quote this verse? So James, can you tell us why you didn't quote this verse? Is it because this verse refutes your whole argument and completely debunks your silly notion that the Bible war passages and the Quran war passages are similar when in fact they aren't?

    Note how the Quran offers the enemies safe havens, the Bible says don't make peace treaties with the enemies!

    1-6

    1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them

    The Bible says show no mercy, meaning just go kill them all, no peace treaties, no nothing.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

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    He Wrote



    At least five major factors make the comparison between Allah and God misguided and weak. In this article, God means the God of the Bible, whereas Allah means the god of the Quran.



    My Response

    Ok.



    He Wrote



    1. The historical span of Quranic and Biblical history must be considered.



    The Old Testament books covers around 1,400 hundred years before Christ, and God did not send out leaders to wage war in most of these years. For example, the Book of Judges alone says that ancient Hebrews enjoyed many decades of peace between each judge who was raised up in order to fight off aggression, sometimes as long as eighty years, longer than Muhammad's 63 years (Judges 3:11, 31; 5:31; 8:28, to cite only these examples).



    My Response

    Whether some one experienced more peace does not really mean much. The prophet Muhammad constantly had problems with unbelieving pagans so therefore he did not have the comfort of having much peace since his enemies always wanted to wipe Islam out, and off course they all failed.

    Furthermore notice the intellectual dishonesty, the prophet Muhammad's ministry lasted for only 23 years, however so the time span of the OT is up to TWO THOUSAND YEARS, so this intellectually bankrupt missionary wants to compare 1400 years as he said, to 23 years of the prophet Muhammad's ministry! Seriously, who writes this stuff?



    He Wrote



    In Islam, Muhammad lived in Medina for only ten years (AD 622-632). In this brief time, he either sent out or went out on seventy-four raids, expeditions, or full-scale wars. They range from small assassination hit squads to eliminate anyone who insulted him, to an Islamic Crusade during which Muhammad led 30,000 jihadists against Byzantine Christians.



    My Response

    The reason he went on full scale wars was to eliminate the threat of enemies who wanted to take the Muslims out. As for the supposed Muslim crusade visit this link which gives the background around surah 9 which is what James is referring to:

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

    As for prophet Muhammad killing people who insulted him and so on, show me this, and show me the isnad and don't bring weak sources please. So we will be waiting for that information. Please visit this link as it deals with this issue as well:

    True Stories or Forgeries? The Killing of Abu 'Afak and Asma' bint Marwan?



    He Wrote



    Allah compelled Muhammad to fight often in his ten years according to the evidence in the Quran and Islamic history, but the true God for over 1,400 years did not wage nearly as many wars per year in Israel's existence according to the Bible and Biblical history.



    My Response

    I showed you multiple verses showing that several cities were destroyed by Moses and his army. So yes your God did wage a lot of wars, in fact they are not even wars, they are just massacres of women and children.



    He Wrote



    2. The Canaanites were beyond hope, whereas the Arab polytheists could be converted.



    In the Old Testament, sometimes God commands all inhabitants of a region or town to be wiped out entirely, like Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:16-19:29), The Quran also approves of this destruction (Suras 7:80-84; 11:77-83; 15:61-77; 26:165-173; 27:54-58; 29:28-30). This is the big lesson of the Genesis passage. If God had found even only ten righteous in those cities, then he would not have destroyed them. But he did destroy them, so Sodom and Gomorrah did not have even ten righteous, except Lot and his family, who were forewarned and escaped.



    An analysis by Samuel J. Schultz in his basic introduction to the Old Testament describes the irretrievable degradation of the Canaanites. After describing the Canaanite deities, he writes of the Canaanite people:



    Since the gods of the Canaanites had low moral character, it is not surprising that the morality of the people was extremely low. The brutality and immorality in the stories about these gods is far worse than anything found in the Near East . . . The Canaanites in Joshua's day practiced child sacrifice, sacred prostitution, and snake worship in their rites and ceremonies associated with religion. Naturally their civilization degenerated under this demoralizing influence. (Samuel J. Schultz, The Old Testament Speaks, 2nd ed., New York: Harper and Row, 1970, p. 92)



    Thus, by comparison with surrounding nations in the Near East, which were not beacons of monotheism and righteousness, to say the least, the Canaanites practiced religious rituals far worse than surrounding nations in the Ancient Near East. Carthage, a city on the North African coast and settled by Phoenicians, who were part of the Ancient Near East, has yielded countless baby skeletons that had been used in sacrifice. So these people were too far gone.



    It must be clearly repeated that according to the Bible no region or town that had a hope of repentance or righteousness was ever wiped out. But when it was, then we can be sure that God was acting wisely and justly, even if our modern emotions do not like this aspect of God's character.



    See this lengthy article on how the Canaanites were worse than the surrounding pagan nations. The article also has a thorough explanation of God's severe decree.



    My Response

    I would like to expose the sub heading that James gives which is the following:

    2. The Canaanites were beyond hope, whereas the Arab polytheists could be converted.

    James gives a false impression; to begin with, the prophet Muhammad did not go and wipe out entire tribes like the Bible! In the Bible Moses not only wiped the Canaanites out, but several other tribes! As James also stated, the Arabs could be converted, and many of them did convert! The only ones the prophet Muhammad fought where the ones who kept on fighting him and wanting to kill him. So James gives a false impression, he tried to make it seem that the prophet Muhammad went and wiped out the entire Arab pagans when in fact this is not the case. The prophet Muhammad got Makkah without a fight! No blood was shed at all.



    He Wrote



    In contrast, Allah never commanded Muhammad to wipe out all the inhabitants of a region or town in Arabia at first. Rather, Allah and his prophet killed some and let others live, based on whether they accepted Islam. Evidently, the pagans of Arabia were not beyond hope.



    My Response



    So James himself admits the point I just caught him out for! Allah never commanded Muhammad to wipe out all the inhabitants! So why did James give the misleading impression! The prophet Muhammad did not kill people on the basis as to whether they believed or not.

    Furthermore James is distorting Islam, the prophet Muhammad never killed pagans based on whether they accepted Islam or not, when the prophet Muhammad entered Makkah why didnt he simply kill all the pagans? If James is correct in his info then naturally we would expect such a thing to occur, yet no such happened!

    In fact it is the Bible which has such commands:



    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 13



    6-18



    6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

    12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.



    He Wrote



    Therefore, the historical context in Arabia 600 years after Christ is the exact opposite of the situation in Canaan 1400 years before Christ. Jesus ushered in a new era of salvation, and Christianity made some impact in Arabia. Hence, Muhammad's treaties with pagans differ widely from God's command to Moses and Joshua in their historical timeframes.

    Allah's and Muhammad's policy of letting some pagans live and killing others in the same tribe necessarily means that the pagans of Arabia were not as hopelessly degenerate as the utterly annihilated Canaanites were?so Allah and Muhammad should never have waged war on them in the first place. Granted that the pagans of Arabia were not completely righteous, they still had hope and light that the Canaanites did not. But it is more accurate to say that Allah's and Muhammad's policy is ad hoc and confused.



    The fact that Muhammad kept calling Arab pagans to convert?and some did?means that they were not beyond hope, so the parallel between God and Allah in the convertibility of the different pagans in the widely different historical contexts (ancient Israel and Late Antiquity Arabia) breaks down.



    This therefore means that the comparison between the two historical periods is misguided.



    My Response

    The pagans did have a light and hope, that was the prophet Muhammad. Many of them never wanted to have peace with him or accept him, so they kept on fighting him and the prophet Muhammad simply fought them back. So James has no point it seems, we the Muslims know the pagans had hope! That is why unlike your Bible, Allah didn't command the prophet Muhammad to wipe them out! The prophet Muhammad fought them when they fought him, simple.

    As for you claiming that Allah and the prophet Muhammad are confused, I say that you are confused, and you are lost.



    He Wrote



    3. God is very specific about who should be wiped out entirely and who should live, whereas Allah feels his way.



    God's decrees are clear and specific, based on his wisdom. Here are four examples. First, God decreed that Edom should live, for the Edomites descended from Esau, the brother of Jacob. They were also outside of the Promised Land (Numbers 20:14-21; Deuteronomy 2:4-6). Second, God decreed that the Midianites should be battled because of their seduction of the people of God into a specially degraded immorality and idolatry (Numbers 25:1-18; and 31:1-54). Third, in the textual context of laying down the rules of warfare, the ancient Hebrews were commanded to offer peace to the pagan cities outside of the Promised Land of Canaan. But if these cities refused peace, then the Hebrews were to battle them. After victory, the pagan women and children were spared, but the men were killed (Deuteronomy 20:10-15). Fourth, in the same textual context of warfare, all cities within the Promised Land should be wiped out (Deuteronomy 20:16-18).



    My Response

    I would like to thank James for mentioning the following, note what he said:

    Third, in the textual context of laying down the rules of warfare, the ancient Hebrews were commanded to offer peace to the pagan cities outside of the Promised Land of Canaan. But if these cities refused peace, then the Hebrews were to battle them

    It is sad James has to distort his own book, James only told you part of the treaty, not all the terms of the treaty. I will quote the terms of the treaty with the part that James was too ashamed to mention:



    Deuteronomy 20: 10-15:



    10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. 11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. 12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: 13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

    So as you can see, there is a stipulation to this treaty, the people have to become slaves for you! So question, why didn't James mention that part? Was he ashamed? Was he scared? I think he was, the fact he didn't mention it shows how corrupt he believes his own book is.

    Furthermore you simply have to chuckle at the level of intellectual bankruptcy that is being displayed! According to James the massacres and holocaust of the Bible are okay because they were aimed at a specific group of people! As he says:

    God is very specific about who should be wiped out entirely and who should live,

    So the genocide of the Bible is perfectly okay since it is at a specific people! Wow, if Christians actually make themselves feel better with this nonsense than what a sad situation we truly have! I honestly hope that Christians don't truly believe in such weak argumentation!

    Furthermore I could play the same game as James, let us assume that Islam commands the annihilation of all pagans, well, the Quran is being specific, and it's simply being specific against the pagans! I am using James' logic here!



    He Wrote



    In these policies that are related to blood-ties, special punishments, geographical distance from Canaan (see point no. 5, below), and the Promised Land itself, God is very specific and very clear?though admittedly severe. He has a divine foundation and explanations for his tough actions. He was not growing in knowledge and feeling his way, for he laid out these policies before battle began and before the ancient Hebrews entered the Promised Land.



    This divine clarity does not mean that the ancient Hebrews carried out God's decrees perfectly; they did not. For example, Joshua failed to consult the Lord in the Gibeonite deception, so he failed to wipe them out (Joshua 9). In the period of the Judges, Israel's disobedience was worse. But God's command was still clear. So the people's disobedience did not mean that the decrees were unclear or evolving or changing. Their disobedience is just that?disobedience on the human level



    My Response



    All this doesnt change the fact your God ordered prophets to kill women and kids. So I do not see what is the use to all this, all your doing is bringing up points to which no one cares, at the end of the day women and children are being murdered and no one cares about your sad justifications of this terrorism and genocide.





    He Wrote



    In contrast, Muhammad's god fluctuates according to circumstances. He goes from one treaty or command to the next in regards to the polytheists in Arabia.



    It is difficult to trust that Allah can read the pagans' hearts, as Muhammad progressed in his revelations from peace with pagans (and Jews) to their deaths in some cases, but not in others, even at the same time and in the same region, based on his military power. For example, early on, Allah and Muhammad wanted to purify the Kabah shrine, but they were unable militarily (Sura 2:125-126; 190-195). Then, nine years later, after they grow in military power, they set out to purify (read: conquer) Arabia. After this is mostly accomplished, they set out to conquer the Byzantine Empire. Thus, Allah and Muhammad do not act thoroughly, but stumblingly, based on military strength, not a secure divine decree.



    My Response

    So James has to make things up. When the prophet Muhammad and his army first fought the pagans, they were outnumbered! The prophet Muhammad was not greater in number. Furthermore the Muslims were ALWAYS the ones who were less in number and equipment when they began their wars, whether it be against the Pagans, Persians, or the Byzantines.





    He Wrote



    Specifically, in Arabia alone, Allah and Muhammad sign the Treaty of Hudaybiyah with Meccan pagans in AD 628. He was caught in a tight squeeze, so he agreed, under Allah's guidance, to live peacefully with the Meccans. Then a year later Muhammad finds (in his own mind) probable cause to break the treaty. Then even later than that, according to Sura 9:1-5, quoted above, Allah permits Muhammad unilaterally to break treaties with polytheists, but in other cases he keeps the treaties until their expiration date. Even the highly respected Muslim commentator Sayyid Abul A'La Maududi says in his comment on those Quranic verses that Muhammad did not fight polytheists sometimes because he was too weak, so he settled for a treaty. But when he became strong, he terminated the treaties (unilaterally) in Sura 9:1-5 (The Meaning of the Qur'an, vol. 2, p. 218, note 82). This implies that Muhammad and his god should never have waged war on the Arab polytheists in the first place, 600 years after Christ came.



    My Response

    The prophet Muhammad was not in a 'tight squeeze', he simply did the right thing and agreed to make terms of peace with the pagans, which worked out to perfection, as it allowed the Muslims to put all their efforts into spreading and teaching Islam, as before the treaty they were largely preoccupied with having to ward of the pagan threat. Perhaps this is why James is so mad, he probaly wished that the pagans refused peace with the Muslims and to just wipe them out.

    As for Muhammad breaking the treaty here and there, why don't you please show this to us. For more on the treaty of Hudaybiyah please visit this link:

    Rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's article Muhammad's False Prophecies - Part 2.



    He Wrote



    Allah's zigzagging differs entirely from the true God's clarity in the Old Testament. God does not change his mind based on a surprising circumstance that he does not seem to foresee. In severe decrees especially, God is not in training or in process, as seen in progressive revelations.



    Thus, the true God is clear and stable in his severe, divine commands, whereas Allah is unclear and fluctuating in his severe commands. This is significant because Allah gives the impression of feeling his way, but God is decisive.



    My Response



    Actually the terms of war are very clear in the Quran. Fight those who fight you, and make peace if they make peace with you:



    002.190
    YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.


    002.191
    YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


    002.192
    YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


    Those are the rules on Islamic warfare, very simple.



    He Wrote



    4. Who was attacked?



    In the Bible, the true God orders warfare only against Canaanites who were too far gone in their decadence. Let us assume, contrary to fact, that a nation neighboring Israel was made up of ethical monotheists. Would the true God decree that a war should be waged against them? To reason deductively, Deuteronomy 20:10-15 says explicitly not to attack nearby pagans outside of Canaan. Also, Jonah preached to Nineveh hundreds of miles away, and the inhabitants of this city were neither degraded Canaanites nor monotheists. Jonah preached good news. So how much more would God not attack a nation if it were made up of monotheists?


    he bottom line is this: the only reason that God ordered these wars after the Exodus was to purge a small and specific land (see no. 5, below). He did not ordain wars of conquest outside of Israel to spread the Hebrew religion around the known world. If the Hebrew religion were spread, it was done by proclamation, as seen in the calling of Jonah.

    On the other hand, Muhammad waged war on polytheists, and Muslims believe that these polytheists were also too far gone morally?a questionable belief as seen in point no. two, but let us assume it only for the sake of argument. Then problems still emerge.

    Namely, Muhammad also attacked Jews and Christians, who are monotheists.

    As for the Christians, Muhammad embarked on an Islamic Crusade against the Byzantines in AD 630. The Byzantines never showed up, so Muhammad the prophet believed a false rumor that the Byzantines were mustering a large army to invade Arabia. But along the way he extracted agreements and protection money from Arab Christians (and Jews) so that they would not be attacked again by Muhammad. Allah ordained wars of conquest outside of Arabia in order to spread Islam by military force. Muhammad and his deity wanted either conversion (the converted paid a "charity" or zakat tax) or money in a jizya tax on the unconverted. Either way, money flowed into the Islamic treasury back in Arabia.


    As for Muhammad's attacks on the Jews of Medina, they were not as degenerate as the polytheists in Muhammad's times. At first, Muhammad wanted to be accepted by the Jews, for they held to the Torah. But the Jews rightly rebuffed him as being outside of Biblical revelation and as being a gentile. As the conflict with them grew and Allah's and Muhammad's military power grew, their policy progressively changes, but never improves; it devolves. He clears the Jews out of Medina first by exile (Qaynuqa tribe); then by military besiegement and exile (Nadir tribe); and finally by extermination of the men and enslavement of the women and children, except he kept a beautiful Jewish woman for himself (Qurayza tribe). In this gradual elimination, Muhammad waged a propaganda war, dehumanizing some of the Jews by calling them "apes" and "pigs" (Suras 7:166; 2:65; 5:60).



    For more on this dubious policy on the Jews, please refer to this article , where the standard lines of defense put forward by Muslims are answered.



    These changes in Allah's policies on Christians and Jews reveal that Allah's decrees are based on the shifting sands of circumstances, such as military power or weakness, and progressive revelations. He wants to be accepted by both of them at first, but they reject him, so his militancy grows according to those circumstances.



    Certainly, the God of Israel would never have exterminated a city that had ten righteous citizens. That is the lesson of Genesis 18:16-19:29, in which Abraham questioned God's decree to destroy these cities. On the other hand, Muhammad did not kill Jews and Christians to rid Arabia of dark polytheism because the Jews and Christians are not polytheists. So Muhammad's warpath is confused. Moses and Joshua were commanded to rid Canaan of paganism that had become darker than the paganism found in the ancient Near East. Any comparison between the two divergent cultures at the time of Moses and at the time of Muhammad is seriously flawed.



    Muhammad's attacks on monotheists, besides polytheists, in and outside of Arabia demonstrate beyond all doubt that Allah and God at war are worlds apart.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

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    My Response

    I cannot believe how James blatantly distorts info to his audience, note what he said:

    In the Bible, the true God orders warfare only against Canaanites who were too far gone in their decadence

    From where does he get this from? His Bible says other wise:

    Zephaniah 2:12-15



    "You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist

    Are Ethiopians and Assyrians considered Canaanites?

    So once again you are being caught in the act of distorting the actual info, this is around the 3rd time you been caught out. Furthermore SO WHAT! Let us assume that your god only commanded the slaughter and genocide of Caananites, does that then make it ok because it is targetting one specific nation only?! Notice this missionary is not denying any of the genocide within the Bible, he is only trying to make excuses to justify the murder and barbaric holocaust that was commited against the Caananites!

    The rest of what James said is responded to on this link:

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

    As for the prophet Muhammad and the Jews in Madinah, he made treaties with them and attacked them after the Jews broke the treaty! Is that too hard for James to understand?

    Even by the end of all of this, James still has to live with the fact that his Bible says kill women and kids, the Quran says no such thing. The Quran says fight for the opressed women and children.

    I urge all readers to visit these links as they deal with the weak points that James brings up:

    The Blessed Jesus and the Place of Jews and Christians in Islam.

    As for Bani Qurayza here is a link regarding them and why they were attacked by the prophet Muhammad:

    Banu Qurayza

    Also other links which address his points:

    The Expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa

    http://home.att.net/~LouaySafi/artic...ce-war/ch3.htm

    The Expulsion of Banu al Nadir

    Every point that James has brought up is addressed in those links

    He Wrote



    A Christian Perspective

    For Christians, this debate is academic, anyway, because they believe that the first coming of Jesus Christ, 600 years before Muhammad, ushered in a new era of salvation, a way to God that excels the one offered in the Old Testament, and much better than the one offered in the Quran; thus, Muhammad's wars on polytheists were misguided from the start, for historical and theological reasons.

    History demonstrates that Muhammad should have never waged war on polytheists or anyone else, for that matter.

    Christians honor the Old Testament and regard it as inspired, but at the same time they acknowledge that it was written for its own times; they also believe that Christ fulfilled it, and hence they must rise above such commands as animal sacrifices, diet restriction, and wars over geopolitical "holy" sites like Jerusalem?what the Emperor Constantine and the Medieval Crusaders did is not foundational to Christianity; only Christ is. With that said, no Christian should ever believe that the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are different. They are not. The same God who purified the specific land of Canaan through Joshua by military warfare is now purifying the whole world through Jesus (the Hebrew name is Joshua) by spiritual warfare, that is, by preaching the gospel.



    My Response

    Yes, and after all this the fact remains that your book says go kill women and kids. I challenge you to bring me a single verse from the Quran giving such a command. It is obvious you cannot defend the info found in Deuteronomy and elsewhere, I don't blame you for that, you are in a very difficult position and your only way out is to distort the info which is all you have done so far.

    As for history, history demonstrates that Muhammad (AS) should have gone to war with the pagans and was right to do so, the only reason your angry is because Muhammad (AS) established Islam as the main religion in Arabia whereas your ?Holy Spirit' failed to do it's job for these backward and lost pagans, where was this paracletos that Jesus promised?



    He Wrote

    Nasr's purpose is to obliquely defend Muhammad's warfare and violence by linking them to the Old Testament way of God's dealing. But this assessment of Christ and Muhammad is wrong on three points.

    First, Nasr's assessment misrepresents the life of Christ who participated and transformed the world around him. He healed the sick, cast out demons, raised the dead, challenged kings and governors, and dodged the traps set by religious leaders. He was even almost thrown off a cliff by an angry mob, but he confidently walked away (Luke 4:28-30). He did not seek revenge on them, as Muhammad did on the Meccans who persecuted him (Sura 8:39). Christ loved sinners; he did not kill them. It is clear, then, that Christ did not retreat from the world.



    My Response

    Actually, since you believe Christ is God then this means he is the God who ordered Moses to kill women and kids, this means that Christ killed! So go learn your own scriptures, you cannot throw the OT away. Furthermore why don't you quote what Christ will do when he returns? Again I have to do what James is shy to do, which is quote his own Bible:

    And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:11-27)

    Did this part of the New Testament escape your mind? For further reading consult the following link:

    Killing like Jesus





    He Wrote



    Second, comparing Muhammad to the prophet-kings is to insult them, given the contrast between the Old Testament and Muhammad. The true God's severe commands better be clear?which is not the case with Allah's commands. This unclarity therefore calls into question whether the true God gave Muhammad these commands in the first place, commands to kill polytheists or Jews or Christians on one day, but not on another, merely because Muhammad's military power fluctuated. Thus, God and Moses and his successors rise above Allah and Muhammad and his successors. God and Allah are worlds apart.



    My Response



    Actually, me posting your article and responding to it is an insult to myself and the readers, and I also apologize to the readers for posting such weak arguments from a missionary who is claimed as a ?scholar', but I feel I must respond because sometimes these Christian apologists actually think they can get away with their deep distortions of Islam and their own Bible.

    As for the rest of what you said, I already addressed this.



    He Wrote



    Third, even if we were to assume, contrary to fact, that the comparison between Muhammad and the prophet-kings of the Old Testament were somewhat close, then that would be sufficient grounds for Christians to reject Muhammad, because Jesus fulfills and completes the Old Testament. Jesus said about John the Baptist, the last prophet of the Old Testament era, representing Elijah: "[anyone] who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than [John]" (Matthew 11:11). Now that the New Testament era has appeared, the ordinary believer is greater than the last of the Old Testament prophets, John the Baptist, the forerunner of Christ. God's kingdom has taken a new direction. Therefore, why would any Christian want to follow a prophet who is modeled after the Old Testament? Muhammad revives a diluted, derivative old law, which is not even as good as the Old Law, the Torah.

    To sum up, on the controversial issue of killing in obedience to divine decree, Muhammad and his successors fall short of Moses and his successors in the Old Testament, and Muhammad falls far, far short of Christ's new way of converting sinners in the New Testament. Islam does not complete the two earlier western religions; rather, it strays too far from them in the wrong direction. Therefore, Islam should never be placed above Judaism, and especially above Christianity.

    Therefore, Muhammad was a deformer, not a reformer of Judaism and Christianity.

    Jesus saves. Muhammad killed.



    My Response

    Actually, Islam is far above Judaism and Christianity. Both of your religions have become corrupt, each one is more corrupt than the other, the Christians do not believe in the prophet Muhammad, the Jews do not believe in the prophet Jesus.

    Islam corrected both religions after both of them went astray, Islam came with better laws than the OT and the NT. Unlike the OT, the Quran shows mercy to its enemies, and it also doesn't say go kill women and children. Also unlike the NT, the Quran does not make silly laws such as saying if you get slapped then turn the check, this is something impossible to practically follow in society, in fact most Christians do not follow it because it's impossible. If a nation bombs you, rapes your women, kills your children (like the Bible does), what will you do, turn the cheek and smile and then ask for more? This is practical nonsense, which makes the NT practical nonsense if Christians want to take such commands as pure literal.

    I also find it very funny that James seems to forget that Jesus and Moses killed women and children. Very funny indeed, again my challenge to James is this. Bring me one verse from the Quran that says kill women and children. Just write and article with the title, here is the surah, post the verse and that's all.

    The only deformer of religion is Paul; he deformed the teachings of Jesus and invented his own religion called Christianity. Islam corrected this error made by Paul.

    The Bible says kill women and children. The Quran says fight for women and children. And as for Jesus saving people, the Jesus of the Bible could not even save himself from the Cross, so how will he save you when he cannot save himself, and when he cried to God shouting why God had abandoned him! If that is what you call a savior, I would like to meet a doomster!

    And Allah Knows Best!

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    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
    اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين

The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

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The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam

The Wars of the Bible compared to the Jihad of Al-Islam