The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

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The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

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Thread: The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

  1. #31
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    With all those claims of weakness and need you have about Allah in the Bible , you contradict yourself here . And for the gazillion time , Allah entrusted the people of the book with the message and they altered it . It's not that he couldn't - exalted he is ! - precieve the message . It is all in his knowledge . And if you dare object , I'll remind you of you - or was it Burnlight - answering the issue of Jacob peace upon him - as you claim - FIGHTING with Allah and actually DEFEATING HIM with "It was in his planning and knowledge" .
    Your original point... Which to which I replied ......I'm just not buying that... Sorry it makes little sense.... Which you seemed to take exception to.
    Allow me to elaborate, although I feel I have in a previous answer .. I don't buy this scenario of yours as I do not see it is consistent with Gods nature of being omniscient.. How is it possible for God not to know His creation would fail to keep His message? If God ... As all knowing... Is aware mankind would fail then there is no point in entrusting mankind with any message at all. If you say this was for a test... Then for what reason? When the outcome is already known. The test of Jacob was God forcing Jacob to recognise himself.. Because until Jacob came to his own understanding of how he fit within Gods plan then God would not use Him for His purpose. There was a divine purpose to Gods testing of Jacob.. What purpose do you see God has in sending His message to people He knew would corrupt it?

    Quote
    If that happened with other members on the forum , it is not my responsibility . Show me one , I say one instance where I don't go straight to the point . Where I don't state why I think your counter argument is wrong and rather repeat what you answered .
    don't take it personally I did not say it was your responsibility. Don't see negativity where none was meant.


    Quote
    Here goes the same fallacy . We're not discussing evidence of corruption . I'm stating that Islam says there is corruption . You on the other hand say "No , your belief that your belief is there is corruption is wrong" . That's completely unrelated and a subject for another time . That's what I've been repeating over and over for months . Do you see now why it's frustrating ? I say there is corruption and you escape it with "Quran contradicts the previous message and thus it's wrong" and you COMPLETELY ignore that I JUST stated the message isn't the original one ! THAT'S where you're going astray from the critical point .
    Can I be clear on this ..? When you say Islam says.. Do you refer to what the Quran says or is it muslims who say this based on the deliberations of Muslim scholars? Because when I read the Quran... Without the benefit of a Muslim scholar to interpret it for me.. The suras muslims usually quote in support of the corruption issue are not conclusive that it's the actual Torah but some parts misrepresented by some Jews. Which really is not the same thing at all. As you have no proof except what you see in the Quran that the Previous message is not the same as we now have then I don't see how you can expect a non Muslim to believe that there was ever a different Torah or a different Gospel to what we have now. Seeing as manuscript evidence for the Bible dates to well before the time of Mohammed and matches up with what we have today. How do you prove to me that the Torah is not the same as the Jews have today.. Or the Gospels for that matter? You say because the Quran tells you so. This you take on faith. This is your faith that this is so.. The Quran is your proof... It is not mine.


    Quote
    Pandora , I'm still holding my nerves . Don't get me to snap . You're here talking to an imaginary person when you state a rule we don't agree on that says "Quran says the messages of the people of the book are divine and thus when it says they are not it is contradicting" . You simply ignore what we say day in day out : The messages Allah sent were altered by the people of the book but there is truth remaining in them which match Quran . Proving the Bible to be corrupt won't make a problem for anyone except Jews and Christians .
    I certainly do not wish to try your patience to the limit .. If you wish you can end dialogue.. No problem. As muslim attempts to prove the Bible in error is also no problem .. For Christians and very probably for Jews also. We know you have nothing. Personally I don't think your prophet ever viewed the previous scriptures in the way muslims today do, I feel it's centuries of Muslim scholars who realise the Quran does not confirm the previous scriptures thus leaving a dilemma for the Quran to be truth the Bible has to be false.. There follows a lifelong quest to tear down Gods word in the Bible through any means possible. The only way the Gods original message and purpose has been changed is by muslims.


    Quote
    Since I believe in the proof of Islam , I take this by faith . That's why I'll believe that this statement of yours is false . Considering how many times I discover that what I believed with faith is true , I'll do the same here . Again , you're distracting the actual topic . Islam says the people of the book altered the message . End of the story . If you want to debate about wither than is true or not then you have this forum and many others .
    its refreshing to see you take something by faith.. This on the method of transmission of the Torah.. I really don't know how some Jews in one locality could have caused the ORIGINAL Torah to be changed. If the thirteenth scroll was so guarded as insurance of accuracy I cannot see how it could be done..

    ***The great success of Jewish tradition is the meticulous transmission of the Torah text. But actually how accurate is it?
    How do we know that the Torah we have today is the same text given on Mount Sinai?


    The Torah was originally dictated from God to Moses, letter for letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us:


    Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would “testify” against him.)


    How were the new scrolls verified? An authentic “proof text” was always kept in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, against which all other scrolls would be checked. Following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the Sages would periodically perform global checks to weed out any scribal errors.


    WRITING A TORAH SCROLL
    To eliminate any chance of human error, the Talmud enumerates more than 20 factors mandatory for a Torah scroll to be considered “kosher.” This is the Torah’s built-in security system. Should any one of these factors be lacking, it does not possess the sanctity of a Torah scroll, and is not to be used for a public Torah reading.


    The meticulous process of hand-copying a scroll takes about 2,000 hours (a full-time job for one year). Throughout the centuries, Jewish scribes have adhered to the following guidelines:


    A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is added.
    A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is deleted.
    The scribe must be a learned, pious Jew, who has undergone special training and certification.
    All materials (parchment, ink, quill) must conform to strict specifications, and be prepared specifically for the purpose of writing a Torah Scroll.
    The scribe may not write even one letter into a Torah Scroll by heart. Rather, he must have a second, kosher scroll opened before him at all times.
    The scribe must pronounce every word out loud before copying it from the correct text.
    Every letter must have sufficient white space surrounding it. If one letter touched another in any spot, it invalidates the entire scroll.
    If a single letter was so marred that it cannot be read at all, or resembles another letter (whether the defect is in the writing, or is due to a hole, tear or smudge), this invalidates the entire scroll. Each letter must be sufficiently legible so that even an ordinary schoolchild could distinguish it from other, similar letters.
    The scribe must put precise space between words, so that one word will not look like two words, or two words look like one word.
    The scribe must not alter the design of the sections, and must conform to particular line-lengths and paragraph configurations.
    A Torah Scroll in which any mistake has been found cannot be used, and a decision regarding its restoration must be made within 30 days, or it must be buried.***

    I hope I have not left anything unanswered from your original post. I don't expect the answers will be in any way satisfactory.. But I tried my best.. If my best is not good enough.. Well not much I can do about it.


    Peace unto you.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
    I do NOT deny that prophet Mohammed as an Arab was blessed by YHWH.. As all Arabs would be so blessed









    Quote
    Why are you hijacking this thread?
    i'm not hijacking the thread !

    you are saying :

    Quote
    i do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH
    you think YHWH is blessing a false prophet ????



    Quote
    I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact?
    your bible dictionary !




    http://bluehost.levendwater.org/book...ible/index.htm


    Islam And Its Founder
    J. W. H. Stobart


    page 36



    page 21




    page 27




    https://archive.org/details/islamitsfounder00stob


    Thanks to my brother Mohammed .

    peace .
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by *اسلامي عزي*; 05-09-2014 at 12:55 AM.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    أنقر(ي) فضلا أدناه :


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    اللهمّ اهدنا و اهد بنا ،

    اللهمّ لا سهل إلا ما جعلته سهلاً، وأنت تجعل الحزن إذا شئت يارب سهلاً، اللهمّ سهّل علينا أمورنا واجعل أعمالنا خالصة لوجهك الكريم نلقاك بها يارب يوم
    الدين.

    آمين... آمين... آمين.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



  3. #33
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    ***The great success of Jewish tradition is the meticulous transmission of the Torah text. But actually how accurate is it?
    How do we know that the Torah we have today is the same text given on Mount Sinai?


    The Torah was originally dictated from God to Moses, letter for letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us:


    Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would “testify” against him.)


    How were the new scrolls verified? An authentic “proof text” was always kept in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, against which all other scrolls would be checked. Following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the Sages would periodically perform global checks to weed out any scribal errors.


    WRITING A TORAH SCROLL
    To eliminate any chance of human error, the Talmud enumerates more than 20 factors mandatory for a Torah scroll to be considered “kosher.” This is the Torah’s built-in security system. Should any one of these factors be lacking, it does not possess the sanctity of a Torah scroll, and is not to be used for a public Torah reading.


    The meticulous process of hand-copying a scroll takes about 2,000 hours (a full-time job for one year). Throughout the centuries, Jewish scribes have adhered to the following guidelines:


    A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is added.
    A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is deleted.
    The scribe must be a learned, pious Jew, who has undergone special training and certification.
    All materials (parchment, ink, quill) must conform to strict specifications, and be prepared specifically for the purpose of writing a Torah Scroll.
    The scribe may not write even one letter into a Torah Scroll by heart. Rather, he must have a second, kosher scroll opened before him at all times.
    The scribe must pronounce every word out loud before copying it from the correct text.
    Every letter must have sufficient white space surrounding it. If one letter touched another in any spot, it invalidates the entire scroll.
    If a single letter was so marred that it cannot be read at all, or resembles another letter (whether the defect is in the writing, or is due to a hole, tear or smudge), this invalidates the entire scroll. Each letter must be sufficiently legible so that even an ordinary schoolchild could distinguish it from other, similar letters.
    The scribe must put precise space between words, so that one word will not look like two words, or two words look like one word.
    The scribe must not alter the design of the sections, and must conform to particular line-lengths and paragraph configurations.
    A Torah Scroll in which any mistake has been found cannot be used, and a decision regarding its restoration must be made within 30 days, or it must be buried.***



    This is from this website :

    http://www.aish.com/h/sh/tat/48969731.html


    8"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. 9"The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?10"Therefore I will give their wives to others, Their fields to new owners; Because from the least even to the greatest Everyone is greedy for gain; From the prophet even to the priest Everyone practices deceit

    Jeremiah 8: 8-10


    36"For you will no longer remember the oracle of the LORD, because every man's own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God.

    Jeremiah 23: 36



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  4. #34
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    you think YHWH is blessing a false prophet ????
    I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet. I believe the Arab nation through Ishmael were blessed.... If Mohammed was an Arab then on that basis he was blessed.... Much like you yourself are blessed.. I am assuming you are also an Arab. It has nothing to do with prophethood.

    That's my belief according to the Bibles account. You believe what you want.

    Peace.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    This is from this website :

    [/FONT][/RIGHT]http://www.aish.com/h/sh/tat/48969731.html


    8"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. 9"The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?10"Therefore I will give their wives to others, Their fields to new owners; Because from the least even to the greatest Everyone is greedy for gain; From the prophet even to the priest Everyone practices deceit

    Jeremiah 8: 8-10


    36"For you will no longer remember the oracle of the LORD, because every man's own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God.

    Jeremiah 23: 36


    Well actually it was from this website.. http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...torahaccuracy/ .... however it's the same article so no problem. I should have provided the link. Apologies.

    Its good that that you choose these verses from Jeremiah.. Although I have addressed this in the past, a long time ago. Please read the explanation of this verse. Because it's important to note the resemblance in what Jeremiah is claiming here is the same or indeed very similar to what the Quran claims in regards to scribes making their own interpretations of the Torah for their own ends... Even for a price. A warning not to follow false prophets and teachers with their own interpretations of scripture... NOT the true and uncorrupted Torah.. Read Jeremiah a very interesting Prophet.. I don't know if he is in the Quran... I don't recall him mentioned.

    Jeremiah 8:8: Is the Bible corrupted?


    Many Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and some refer to the following verse:


    "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)


    1. Wise men who are not so wise
    "We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite, who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses [1]. Jeremiah is addressing the priests and false prophets. He accused them many times that they were destroying the country with their actions (Jeremiah 2:8, 26; Jeremiah 4:9; Jeremiah 5:31; Jeremiah 8:10).


    2. False interpretation of the Scriptures
    "The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3].
    Next verse, Jeremiah 8:9 shows that the wise men will be very ashamed.
    The contrast is between the written and oral Law of Moses. The oral explanation of the Law of Moses was done by scribes and educated and intelligent men, who changed the written Law of Moses according to the book Deuteronomy. Jeremiah attacks the false wisdom [4].


    3. Conclusion
    After a review of the Gospel verse the conclusion can be drawn that Jeremiah 8:8 does not say that the Bible was corrupted, but that false written commentaries were distributed about the Scriptures. The prophet Jeremiah warned not to follow false teachings.

    http://www.ibnzura.com/answer.php?la...ble_corrupted?

    peace unto you.

  6. #36
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    1. Wise men who are not so wise
    "We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite, who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses [1]. Jeremiah is addressing the priests and false prophets. He accused them many times that they were destroying the country with their actions (Jeremiah 2:8, 26; Jeremiah 4:9; Jeremiah 5:31; Jeremiah 8:10).



    This is a false preception since the text literally said pen , it is about manipulating the writtings not the explanation

    lets look at the interpritation of the passage :

    Yea, behold I for a lie hath it wrought - the lying pen of the scribes (so Authorized Version, margin). Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. There are indications enough that the Hebrew literature was not entirely confined to those whom we look up to as the inspired writers, and it is perfectly credible that the formalist priests and false prophets should have availed themselves of the pen as a means of giving greater currency to their teaching. Jeremiah warns his hearers to distrust a literature which is in the set-vice of false religious principles - a warning which prophets in the wider sense of the term ('The Liberty of Prophesyings') still have but too much occasion to repeat, tit is right, however, to mention another grammatically possible rendering, which is adopted by those who suppose torah in the preceding clause to mean the Mosaic Law: "Yea, behold, the lying pen of the scribes hath made (it) into a lie;"i.e. the professional interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their groundless comments and inferences, made the Scriptures (especially the noblest part, the Law) into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the Divine will and teaching.

    Source : pulpit commentary

    So the text is clearly talking about false teachers and false prophets writting what they feel like . The text clearly mentioned scribe and clearly testifies to the corruption of the word of god by those false teachers and false prophets who were writting. This understanding and explanation from your part comes from the POSSIBILITY according to christian interpriters that maybe the word torah meant the Mosiac law which is false because everybody here knows that jews consider the torah to be the first five books of the old testament.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    2. False interpretation of the Scriptures
    "The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3].
    Next verse, Jeremiah 8:9 shows that the wise men will be very ashamed.
    The contrast is between the written and oral Law of Moses. The oral explanation of the Law of Moses was done by scribes and educated and intelligent men, who changed the written Law of Moses according to the book Deuteronomy. Jeremiah attacks the false wisdom [4].



    Already answered this above but the sentences in red show a contradiction in this response , actually it shows a slight manipulation which the writer tried to do by admitting first that they were writers and the word scribes means writers then calling those same writers as interpriters !!!!!

    He wrote it this way to avoid the reader from coming to the conclusion which the simple reader might come up with which is that those scribes manipulated the actual writting !!!


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    3. Conclusion
    After a review of the Gospel verse the conclusion can be drawn that Jeremiah 8:8 does not say that the Bible was corrupted, but that false written commentaries were distributed about the Scriptures. The prophet Jeremiah warned not to follow false teachings.



    A false conclusion based on a false interpritation of the clear text and contradicting the other interpritation

    I WOULD LIKE TO NOTE that this answer does NOT actually answer this passage :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989
    "For you will no longer remember the oracle of the LORD, because every man's own word will become the oracle,
    and you have perverted the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God.


    Jeremiah 23: 36



    I think this passage is clear it said words not interpritations


    peace
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  7. #37
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    This is a false preception since the text literally said pen , it is about manipulating the writtings not the explanation

    lets look at the interpritation of the passage :

    Yea, behold I for a lie hath it wrought - the lying pen of the scribes (so Authorized Version, margin). Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. There are indications enough that the Hebrew literature was not entirely confined to those whom we look up to as the inspired writers, and it is perfectly credible that the formalist priests and false prophets should have availed themselves of the pen as a means of giving greater currency to their teaching. Jeremiah warns his hearers to distrust a literature which is in the set-vice of false religious principles - a warning which prophets in the wider sense of the term ('The Liberty of Prophesyings') still have but too much occasion to repeat, tit is right, however, to mention another grammatically possible rendering, which is adopted by those who suppose torah in the preceding clause to mean the Mosaic Law: "Yea, behold, the lying pen of the scribes hath made (it) into a lie;"i.e. the professional interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their groundless comments and inferences, made the Scriptures (especially the noblest part, the Law) into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the Divine will and teaching.

    Source : pulpit commentary

    So the text is clearly talking about false teachers and false prophets writting what they feel like . The text clearly mentioned scribe and clearly testifies to the corruption of the word of god by those false teachers and false prophets who were writting. This understanding and explanation from your part comes from the POSSIBILITY according to christian interpriters that maybe the word torah meant the Mosiac law which is false because everybody here knows that jews consider the torah to be the first five books of the old testament.



    I'm quite frankly astounded at your reply here. It's so rare we agree, although it would seem you do not understand that my reply above and the reply you post here are in agreement. I think you should maybe look again at the interpretation ...

    Firstly... What is a scribe? A scribe as you highlight above is one who is practiced in writing.. Last time I checked to write meant to commit something .. Words .. To paper. So.. When a scribe interprets something he is quite likely to be putting this into writing, seeing as that's the job he's paid to do. So far we can agree that the scribe has committed something to paper... In written form. You say or rather your copy paste says ...Hebrew Literature. Slightly different from sacred scripture. However, let's assume that Jeremiah is actually right in his surmise that some scribes did indeed write words for personal gain that were interpreted from sacred scripture. This however, is not proof that the sacred scripture , The Torah, itself was changed.. There is nothing to say that the Original Torah was ever tampered with. Given the reverence in which it was guarded I find it highly unlikely that scribes whose credentials were not proven impeccable would be allowed anywhere near it! However, the Torah was used in teaching so it's an easy task knowing what it contained to interpret parts for their own agenda or at the behest of false prophets... Which is the reason for Jeremiah's warnings. This maybe difficult for you to grasp as the Quran tells you to believe the prophets and does not explain to you that not all prophets are true and from God. So it's possible you don't understand false prophets and the danger the represent to mankind.

    You are actually correct when you say it's clear that FALSE prophets and FALSE teachers are writing what they feel like ...and that is exactly what Jeremiah is warning the people about.. That they should not listen to such scribes because they are not teaching the true scripture.. Gods word as found in the Torah.

    Theres no possibilities or maybes needed.. It's clear enough for those with eyes to see. For those with eyes wide shut there will never be clarity. Besides your article doesn't actually claim that the Christians believe it only applies to the Mosaic Law... Which we don't as we see the Torah is just about the Law.. But does contain the noblest part of the Law just the same. I see this warning very similar to the verses in the Quran you quote in relation to lying scribes corrupting the words.


    Quote
    Already answered this above but the sentences in red show a contradiction in this response , actually it shows a slight
    Quote
    Jeremiah 23: 36


    manipulation which the writer tried to do by admitting first that they were writers and the word scribes means writers then calling those same writers as interpriters !!!!!

    He wrote it this way to avoid the reader from coming to the conclusion which the simple reader might come up with which is that those scribes manipulated the actual writting !!!


    There is no contradiction... Read it again. The article again..

    who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses

    "The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3].

    If one is seeking to change the meaning of a text, one has to interpret it in a different way to which it's intended that does not mean that the person is some kind of interpreter.. I can see maybe if English is not your mother tongue then maybe it's possible you confuse the meaning here.


    Quote
    A false conclusion based on a false interpritation of the clear text and contradicting the other interpritation
    honestly, just because you fail to understand the argument it's rather impolite to claim it's false. It would be better to say "in your opinion" you think the conclusion is false. Yet... Simply because you do not agree with it does not make it false.


    Quote
    I WOULD LIKE TO NOTE that this answer does NOT actually answer this passage :
    Quote
    36
    "For you will no longer remember the oracle of the LORD, because every man's own word will become the oracle,
    and you have perverted the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God.


    Jeremiah 23: 36


    I think this passage is clear it said words not interpritations

    peace

    I didn't bother addressing Jeremiah 23:36. I thought it was pretty self explanatory and even you could not misunderstand it. As should be apparent, the words of the Bible are the pure words of God, not the perverted words of the false prophets. You are getting hung up on the minutiae and confusing "words" and "interpretation"... And interpretation is simply the means by which one explains the meaning of something.. The words are the means to convey that meaning ... A false interpretation is to change the meaning from its original intention... Which is exactly what prophet. Jeremiah accuses the lying scribes in the pay of the false teachers and false prophets of doing. "You will no longer remember the Oracle of The Lord".. They will cease to listen to the true prophet.. "because every man's own word will become the oracle,"... They will instead be listening to the words of the false prophets who have changed the words to their own agenda.. For their own glory .. Not to the glory of God. "you have perverted the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God." Self explanatory...
    If this makes no sense to you then I don't see any point in further dialogue on this matter.

    Peace unto you.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post

    I'm quite frankly astounded at your reply here. It's so rare we agree, although it would seem you do not understand that my reply above and the reply you post here are in agreement. I think you should maybe look again at the interpretation ...

    Firstly... What is a scribe? A scribe as you highlight above is one who is practiced in writing.. Last time I checked to write meant to commit something .. Words .. To paper. So.. When a scribe interprets something he is quite likely to be putting this into writing, seeing as that's the job he's paid to do. So far we can agree that the scribe has committed something to paper... In written form
    Yes I agree so far with you

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    . You say or rather your copy paste says ...Hebrew Literature. Slightly different from sacred scripture.
    I cited my resource , I would not have brought up the interpritation of pulpit if you have not copied and pasted from that website

    As for hebrew literiture, it is talking about the scripture or what else would it be talking about !!!! literiture is something written , I do not think I have to explain that :

    There are indications enough that the Hebrew literature was not entirely confined to those whom we look up to as the inspired writers

    notice the word inspired !!!!! meaning those writting the word of god

    9"The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD





    The manipulation of Words not interpritation :

    Lo, certainly in vain made he it; either the law, which was made or given in vain by the Lord to this people, since they made no better use of it, and valued themselves upon having it, without acting according to it; or the pen of the scribe, which was made by him in vain to write it, as follows:

    the pen of the scribes is in vain; in vain, and to no purpose, were the scribes employed in writing out copies of the law, when either it was not heard or read, or however the things it enjoined were not put in practice; or the pen of the scribes was in vain, when employed in writing out false copies of the law, or false glosses and interpretations of it, such as were made by the Scribes and Pharisees in Christ's time, and the fathers before them, by whose traditions the word of God was made of none effect: and so the Targum,

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    This I think speaks out for itself , the manipulation of words happened and it is the actual jewish and christian interpritation of the passage , the author stated that the manipulation continued in writting NOT interpritation only but also writting false passages till the time of Jesus peace be upon him

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    However, let's assume that Jeremiah is actually right in his surmise that some scribes did indeed write words for personal gain that were interpreted from sacred scripture. This however, is not proof that the sacred scripture , The Torah, itself was changed.. There is nothing to say that the Original Torah was ever tampered with.
    Problem with your logic is that you are clearly saying that they wrote words according to their personal gain and then you say no it did not affect and its no proof!!!! this statement does not make any sense!!!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    Given the reverence in which it was guarded I find it highly unlikely that scribes whose credentials were not proven impeccable would be allowed anywhere near it!
    Your personal opinions does not (with all do respect) matter in this case with the christian interpritors of the bible and the context of the passage and what it says clearly says otherwise

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    .. This maybe difficult for you to grasp as the Quran tells you to believe the prophets and does not explain to you that not all prophets are true and from God. So it's possible you don't understand false prophets and the danger the represent to mankind.
    WRONG , both the Quran and hadeeth teach that there are false prophets and will be also in the future.

    Check your facts before stating your claims


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    Theres no possibilities or maybes needed.. It's clear enough for those with eyes to see. For those with eyes wide shut there will never be clarity. Besides your article doesn't actually claim that the Christians believe it only applies to the Mosaic Law... Which we don't as we see the Torah is just about the Law
    Ya that is why previously you said it is probably unlikely!!!! that sounds like a big maybe to me

    NO your article claimed that :


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    Wise men who are not so wise
    "We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite, who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora


    [/FONT] There is no contradiction... Read it again. The article again..

    who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses

    "The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3]. [FONT=Sakkal Majalla]
    honestly, just because you fail to understand the argument it's rather impolite to claim it's false. It would be better to say "in your opinion" you think the conclusion is false. Yet... Simply because you do not agree with it does not make it false.


    [/COLOR][/RIGHT]
    [/COLOR]
    I think its sad that you and the writer failed miseribly in proving your point , because at the end the writer of this article based ALL of his claims on his PERSONAL opinion NOT the christian interpritation like Gill's exposition or pulpit commentary. It is quite obvious that the writer knew the delema he was being faced by the claims of the muslims so he resorted to such misguided and twisted interpritation of the simple clear text


    The contradiction exists by the way since after all of what your author said he made one and major mistake at the end of his article when he said this :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    The oral explanation of the Law of Moses was done by scribes and educated and intelligent men, who changed the written Law of Moses according to the book Deuteronomy. Jeremiah attacks the false wisdom
    This is a clear contradiction with what he said earlier :

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite,
    who made their own explanation
    of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses

    Do you see how the writer is confused !!!! He doesn't know what he is pointing out !!!

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora

    I didn't bother addressing Jeremiah 23:36. I thought it was pretty self explanatory and even you could not misunderstand it. As should be apparent, the words of the Bible are the pure words of God, not the perverted words of the false prophets. You are getting hung up on the minutiae and confusing "words" and "interpretation"
    NOPE , that is you who are getting hung up on these words for the passage explains itself it is simple !!!!


    Verse 36. - And the burden of the Lord, etc.; i.e. ye shall no longer use the word massa at all. Every man's word shall be his burden; rather, the burden to every man shall be his word; i.e. his derisive use of the word massa shall be a burden which shall crush him to the ground. Ye have perverted; i.e. have turned them round, and put them into a ridiculous light" (Payne Smith).

    This shows that there were jews who had fallsified prophecies an lied and made fun of it !!!!!

    Clearly this means that if they were ready to mock God's words and his prophets they were ready to manipulate his words which would be seen as no problem


    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by pandora
    If this makes no sense to you then I don't see any point in further dialogue on this matter.

    It makes absolutely no sense to debate about this after this

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989

    The manipulation of Words not interpritation :

    Lo, certainly in vain made he it; either the law, which was made or given in vain by the Lord to this people, since they made no better use of it, and valued themselves upon having it, without acting according to it; or the pen of the scribe, which was made by him in vain to write it, as follows:


    the pen of the scribes is in vain; in vain, and to no purpose,
    were the scribes employed in writing out copies of the law, when either it was not heard or read, or however the things it enjoined were not put in practice;
    or the pen of the scribes was in vain, when employed in
    writing out false copies of the law
    , or false glosses and interpretations of it,
    such as were made by the Scribes and Pharisees in Christ's time, and the fathers before them
    , by whose traditions the word of God was made of none effect: and so the Targum,

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    Last edited by محمد سني 1989; 06-09-2014 at 08:21 AM.
    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  9. #39
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    What is wrong with you people???? What part of ..... I'll have to get back to the rest of your post another time.... Did you not understand! As I have tried to explain before.. The device I use does not make it easy to reply to multiple points when the post in question is rather long..constantly having to scroll up and down faffing about with quotes etc.. It's possible to miss a point.
    Sorry , my bad .

    Quote
    Faith is not antagonistic to logic....biblical faith and reason go well together. However, many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses.
    Whatyou say here and what you say in other places doesn't match . For instance , when I ask you why should I believe in the message if the messenger cannot be trusted , you tell me it's because they were chosen by God while you forget the fact that I'm saying there is no proof of them being chosen by him . Isn't that faith without evidence . And furthermore , DON'T try to make it look like I'M the one with misconceptions . You're the one who kept saying :

    Quote
    You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable. Logic can be disproved.
    And I'm not misunderstanding if I say that you're separating logic and faith here .

    Quote
    People believe in laws of logic. Yet, laws of logic are not material. They are abstract and cannot be experienced by the senses. We can write down a law of logic such as the law of non-contradiction (It is impossible to have A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship.) but the sentence is only a physical representation of the law, not the law itself. When people use laws of logic, they have confidence in something they cannot actually observe with the senses... this is a type of faith.
    Way to go ! Now what does this have to do with the current case ? You said logic can be disproved . That means 1+1 can equal 5 . This is not a matter of science or physical senses . Being unable to sense this has nothing to do with the fact that it's a self evident fact that cannot be disproved , science or not . Having faith in a religion isn't the same as having faith in such facts . Trying to make the two look the same is far from correct .

    Quote
    When we have confidence that the universe will operate in the future as it has in the past, we are acting on faith.. we all presume that gravity will work the same next Friday as it does today.
    False . This is science . And using it , we reach conclusions about how the universe works based on expirementing . However , it is not absolute . Scientific laws can be broken or altered . That however wouldn't affect our faiths and it is not currently the issue . The issue is that you falsely made science=logic . Logic is beyond science .

    Quote
    We don't rely on faith at the expense of logic and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to get across that we don't "demand" that evidence for our faith in God needs always to conform to mans logical laws and ideas.
    \

    Faith in God isn't blind . Anyone who can observe existence knows for sure it did not appear out of nothing for nothing . That's the thing which demolishes the faith of Atheists . The thing is , their faith is in the physical and logical impossibilities altogether . However , that's where we theists differ . Why should I believe that YOUR religion is right ? Why should I believe it is not an innovation man or someone else ? Of course you can say the same about ours but that's where evidence and proof is presented . Anything else is faith based on no evidence .

    Quote
    he Bible has many miracles recorded.. By today's logical reasoning many would choose to belief they did not happen because they were against the laws of logic as we know them. I have faith that God operates outside our notions and understanding and so have no problem accepting them as proof of God.
    False . Miracles are not against logic . They may be against science but NOT against logic . STOP . COMPARING . SCIENCE . TO LOGIC . A staff becoming a snake , a sea splitting , birht with no father , splitting the moon , and all the miracles of the prophets might be physically impossible - and a number of them isn't impossible physically even ! - but they are NEVER logically impossible . It's physically impossible to outspeed light - there are doubts about this currently but whatever - but it's not logically impossible . An example of the logically impossible is saying that a square is not a square at the same time ! See the difference ?

    Furthermore , it doesn't make sense to take these miracles as proof without being sure that they were not tricks or making sure that the records which tell about them are authnetic and accurate . What you're supposed to do is provide your reasons for believing that they are and not just "There are miracles . End of the story" .

    Quote
    I guess I had in mind those muslims that look to scientific facts found in the Quran as proof of its divinity.. I should have put that in the context of my post. I did not.. My bad. That's is a dangerous use of logic.. Because it's quite likely one day someone will come along and logically disprove a claim.. And where does that leave you
    False again . While there are indeed inaccurate claims about scientific miracles of Islam that are based on eagerness and rash acts , that doesn't deny there are indeed accurate ones .These ones are based on FACTS . Not hypothesis , not thoeries , but FACTS . Like the fact that mountains are pegs . Like the fact that the embryo matches what Quran says . If any of these change for some reason , that would be breaking the norm and physical laws of the world . Otherwise , they CAN'T be disproved . And for the record , you shouldn't be worried about us . Scientific miracles are not something we base our belief on . They are yet more evidence for Islam but they are not THE evidence . If one , two , or all of them are disproved - not that it's gonna happen - , our faith won't budge an iota .

    What would make a problem is if - IF - Quran stated a fact about the world around us and it turned out to be wrong . That's what didn't and won't happen . Allah never says something that is wrong . If you believe otherwise when it comes to your religion , that is your issue .

    Quote
    In regards to your mathematical equation which I know some people use to explain the trinity.. 1+1+1=1 well I never see the point to that.. How can one measure the infinite by the finite? Surely if the infinite is a creation how can it be applied to explain the Creator? I will have to think on that one..
    While I do see this equation as false , where did I bring it up ? I won't discuss it though .

    Quote
    When I say you are wrong to believe the Bible is corrupted I mean as a Christian I don't see as a Christian that the verses I have thus far been shown conclusively prove that the Torah was changed.. But that some Jews .. Changed some scripture
    Then allow me to say that you are either ignoring this fact , or are simply incapable of seeing properly . If - IF - we agree for the sake of argument that the signs of Quran can be explained either way , Sunnah gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM to deny anymore .

    Quote
    Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"
    So why keep arguing about something so simple that every Muslims through the history of Islam understands ?! And why is it that instead of defending your religion against this claim made by Islam , you try to deny that Islam says so in the first place ? It makes me feel that your faith isn't strong enough for it .

    Quote
    I find it strange you don't find it odd that God could not or chose not to protect His previous word from change ..thereby needing to send another message. It seems to me such a stand goes against Gods nature of being omniscient. I mean God would know the message would be changed why bother with the prophets why not cut to the chase and just send Mohammed and we'd all be Muslim. For some kind of test? To what purpose..?
    I have seriously reached the breaking point . I kept explaining this to you and your other buddy for MONTHS . And you JUST ignore it with a straight face . Here , I'll quote someone who said "NONE OF YOUR BLOODY BUSINESS !" . SERIOUSLY ! Have you no shame act like I didn't provide this signs TWICE ?! :

    21:23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

    So just because you Mistress are not able to comprehend why Allah does something doesn't give you the right to object . That's something you wouldn't even dare do with YOUR religion . Ironically , when I asked how can the all powerful be defeated - exalted is Allah from what you describe ! - by his creature , your freind answered "It was in his planning" and you didn't seem to object or differ . What's more irritating is how you make it look like I'm sying Allah - exalted he is - didn't KNOW the corruption would occur . Something we went over two or three times ! He KNEW it would happen . And he COULD have protected them . But he entrued the people of the book and they FAILED the test . Why would he do that ? None of your business . And I guarintee that you'll say such a thing WHENEVER I ask you about anything in Christianity . So spare us . So much for "Faith" .

    Quote
    I do not feel able to offer criticism on the inconsistencies in the Quran. I do not wish to cause offence, I know I am not allowed to criticise Islam on this forum.
    Oh yeah . "We interrupt this conversation to present you (Muslims are bad guys)" . First of all , in our belief , there is NOTHING you'd "critisize" . It's perfect . But , if you have any claims or allegations , we're glad to level them to the ground . That's what anyone of any religion would believe . So as long as you watch our for how you present your argument and avoid flooding the place with them , NONE of us fears your allegations .

    Quote
    21:18 Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.
    Quote
    How is it possible for God not to know His creation would fail to keep His message?
    Since you wrote this before I answered , I'll just ignore it . If you STILL repeat it AGAIN after my answer in THIS reply , you're just missing around .

    Quote
    Can I be clear on this ..? When you say Islam says.. Do you refer to what the Quran says or is it muslims who say this based on the deliberations of Muslim scholars?
    Don't you DARE try and force your personal - and baseless - opinions on our book . Not while you can't even read it properly . It's Quran and Sunnah who say that . And from those two , scholars and non scholars - evne illiterate people - understand that the people of the book distorted the message .

    Quote
    Seeing as manuscript evidence for the Bible dates to well before the time of Mohammed and matches up with what we have today.
    You're so sensetive about the matter that you jump the gun to defend the Bible while I haven't even addressed it . I've been trying to make this simple fact "Islam says the Bible is distorted" to you . I haven't even discussed wither that is true or not and I DID say I'll take this on faith until I acquire knowledge of the subject because I'm convinced of the evidence that Islam is right .

    Quote
    Personally I don't think your prophet ever viewed the previous scriptures in the way muslims today do, I feel it's centuries of Muslim scholars who realise the Quran does not confirm the previous scriptures thus leaving a dilemma for the Quran to be truth the Bible has to be false..
    Well with all due respect , this personal opinion of yours isn't worth a penny . Already demonstrated why it's baseless .

    Quote
    its refreshing to see you take something by faith.. This on the method of transmission of the Torah.. I really don't know how some Jews in one locality could have caused the ORIGINAL Torah to be changed.
    YET again , my discussion with you all these months isn't about evidence with or against corruption , it's about the ABSURD claim that "Islam doesn't say the Bible is distorted" , it's about you FORCING your opinion - based on nothing - on our book .

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    Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
    Yes I agree so far with you



    I cited my resource , I would not have brought up the interpritation of pulpit if you have not copied and pasted from that website

    As for hebrew literiture, it is talking about the scripture or what else would it be talking about !!!! literiture is something written , I do not think I have to explain that :

    There are indications enough that the Hebrew literature was not entirely confined to those whom we look up to as the inspired writers

    notice the word inspired !!!!! meaning those writting the word of god

    9"The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD


    Look friend, there is nothing wrong with citing off the internet, and I'm not criticising you for doing so... So stop trying to take offence where none is meant. I already said my bad.. For forgetting to state my source at to he end of my post.
    Regarding "Hebrew Literature" .. You are joking here right? Not all Hebrew literature was considered the inspired word of God... Early Jewish
    Apocrypha also had its place in society but was NOT considered inspired or part of the Jewish canon. You understand that literature is written but you do not seem to understand that NOT all literature is inspired by God!! I am sometimes inspired by the world around me to write poetry... Should I claim God directly inspired me to write poetry?? If I did claim thus is my poetry of divine origin???

    ***They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD***
    yes ... They have rejected the word of The Lord .... Preferring instead there own version.

    Quote
    The manipulation of Words not interpritation :
    Quote
    Lo, certainly in vain made he it; either the law, which was made or given in vain by the Lord to this people, since they made no better use of it, and valued themselves upon having it, without acting according to it; or the pen of the scribe, which was made by him in vain to write it, as follows:

    the pen of the scribes is in vain; in vain, and to no purpose, were the scribes employed in writing out copies of the law, when either it was not heard or read, or however the things it enjoined were not put in practice; or the pen of the scribes was in vain, when employed in writing out false copies of the law, or false glosses and interpretations of it, such as were made by the Scribes and Pharisees in Christ's time, and the fathers before them, by whose traditions the word of God was made of none effect: and so the Targum,

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    This I think speaks out for itself , the manipulation of words happened and it is the actual jewish and christian interpritation of the passage , the author stated that the manipulation continued in writting NOT interpritation only but also writting false passages till the time of Jesus peace be upon him


    Writing out copies of the Law... Writing out false copies of the Law.. Copies... does NOT imply the original is in any way changed.

    Quote
    Problem with your logic is that you are clearly saying that they wrote words according to their personal gain and then you say no it did not affect and its no proof!!!! this statement does not make any sense!!!
    how does it not make sense to you? Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to get you to understand here..

    The Bible in my church is ancient and revered.. We do not handle it..(we have our own Bibles for that purpose) Passages, parables and teachings are read to us as part of our worship.. I can listen intently and later interpret the verse or whatever and may come to a different understanding of it.. I could think well ..it could also mean this or that, I could then write a copy of my interpretation and distribute it to others saying really you are in error this is the real meaning of this or that verse.. I ask you to think here and apply your logic.. In doing this have I in anyway changed what is originally written in the Bible in my Church? I may lead some people astray with my false interpretation.. Those who did not know or care for the true Bible could be swayed... Especially if my interpretation is more agreeable to them. But as long as the true Bible stays in my church my corruption of the text is easy to see as being a false interpretation... If one doubted that the Church Bible had not also been changed by myself then they would only need to check any of the hundreds of other Bibles in the locality to see the falseness of my efforts. I would be guilty of being a lying scribe.. Thankfully there are always those guided by God to point out my errors. So.. In conclusion.. No matter how many copies falsely made by lying scribes and distributed as Gods word by false prophets and teachers the true word of God will always remain unchanged. Your article from Gills exposition of the entire Bible and the article I posted basically say the same. You just don't see it.

    As a librarian with access to archives I know and understand the importance that is placed on historical documents.. Even church records going back to the 17th century are handled rarely and under strict conditions.. How much more so do you think this would be with the Torah which for the Jewish people is sacred?


    Quote
    Your personal opinions does not (with all do respect) matter in this case with the christian interpritors of the bible and the context of the passage and what it says clearly says otherwise
    Neither do yours.. (With all due respect) what do you think a Christian interpreter of the Bible is for heavens sake?? Do you think they have special powers or something? Do Islamic scholars have special powers? Or like scholars the world over spend years studying a particular field to best understand it. Even among scholars opinions differ.

    [QUOTE ]WRONG , both the Quran and hadeeth teach that there are false prophets and will be also in the future.

    Check your facts before stating your claims [/QUOTE]

    I stand corrected.. However does the Quran not tell you to believe the Prophets?

    Quote
    Ya that is why previously you said it is probably unlikely!!!! that sounds like a big maybe to me

    NO your article claimed that :

    I think its sad that you and the writer failed miseribly in proving your point , because at the end the writer of this article based ALL of his claims on his PERSONAL opinion NOT the christian interpritation like Gill's exposition or pulpit commentary. It is quite obvious that the writer knew the delema he was being faced by the claims of the muslims so he resorted to such misguided and twisted interpritation of the simple clear text


    The contradiction exists by the way since after all of what your author said he made one and major mistake at the end of his article when he said this :

    This is a clear contradiction with what he said earlier :

    Do you see how the writer is confused !!!! He doesn't know what he is pointing out !!!

    NOPE , that is you who are getting hung up on these words for the passage explains itself it is simple !!!!


    Verse 36. - And the burden of the Lord, etc.; i.e. ye shall no longer use the word massa at all. Every man's word shall be his burden; rather, the burden to every man shall be his word; i.e. his derisive use of the word massa shall be a burden which shall crush him to the ground. Ye have perverted; i.e. have turned them round, and put them into a ridiculous light" (Payne Smith).

    This shows that there were jews who had fallsified prophecies an lied and made fun of it !!!!!

    Clearly this means that if they were ready to mock God's words and his prophets they were ready to manipulate his words which would be seen as no problem


    It makes absolutely no sense to debate about this after this
    What I really see as sad is your unwillingness to understand anything... Even when we cite sources that both essentially make the same claim you feel the need to disgree. It's almost to the point of disagreeing for the point of it. Claims of the muslims!!!! Like we should be worried about what claims muslims make about Christianity or the Bible or the person of Christ Jesus. Sorry.. To disappoint, we are not unduly concerned. There is nothing constructive you have added here at all and it's for that reason I don't feel this is worth pursuing any further. You keep using the word "clearly" but really this is only clear in your opinion.. Your reasoning is about as clear as mud to me! You are indeed a difficult person to talk with ...lol... However I still can love you as a brother in humanity and wish you all the best on your chosen path.

    Peace and Gods grace upon you, I pray He will show you His divine love and guide you to His truth.

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The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

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The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin