Some here complain my responses tend to be emotional rather than logical... Well.. That is me I'm afraid I feel my faith strongly and I live my life in the shadow of God and seek as best I can to do His will. It doesn't mean I always get things right.
Then I'm afraid there's very little benefit in any discussion .
how does that work...? If a prophet knows what is a sin but sins regardless.. How then is it a mistake?
He doesn't ! In the story of Musa peace upon him , he pooked the man to make him back off from the other and killed him while not intending to . Quran says :
28:15 And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." 19 He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
Is it possible a chosen prophet does not have the knowledge from God of what God sees as a sin?
Wait a minute . NOW you say that the people chosen to deliver the message should be this and that ? What happened to :
Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet?
Why would God not arm the prophets with this knowledge and so the problem of sin is avoided?
Again , it could be unintentional , out of forgetting , or something else . That's the human nature . None is perfect except Allah the almighty . That's why Quran teaches us these :
2:286 Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
You miss the point. The sin is taking the life of another... In any circumstance if it is against Gods holy law. As God is both merciful and just we know the punishment will fit the crime.. So to speak..if all sin is an anathema to a Holy God then it has to be all sin.. Basically all sin comes down to disobedience against God, for which a penalty has to be paid.
A penalty might be there for unintentional errors . But they can NEVER be the same as intentional ones . So let me get this straight : Are you saying that if a man is driving a car and suddenly another hasty one jumps in front of him - breaking the laws of traffic - leading to the death of the second one , are you telling me that this man intended to kill the other and is the same as one who seeks to kill ? Pandora , I'm talking common sense here . If a student running in the hallway crashes on a teacher then he might be scolded or punished for not paying attention , but when a student throws eggs on a teacher's house or car then that is DEFINITELY different .
You are happy maintaining that God can just forgive sin.. Just like that.. No penalty. I don't see that can be just.
No offense but , are you kidding me ? I still remember stating that you believe I'm destined to hell for not believing in Christianity and you said it's not the case . You're the ones who talk about loving enemies and forgiving them implying that their sins are nothing . What's up with that ?
whom he disobeyed? Surely in the case of sin it is God who has been disobeyed... On that basis God decides the penalty.
Well what did you think I said ? Both a person talking badly - e.g badmouthing others - and a theif are disobeying Allah and that isn't something to take lightly . Still , Allah is just - along with mercy and other charecteristics - and doesn't deal with sins the same way . Thus , associating partners with Allah is the sin which he never forgives and he forgives for whomever he desires below that .
4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.
Hang on a minute!! Where we accept the Bible prophets being human are prone to the same sins as we all are.. Are open to the same temptations we all are.. At no point do we see that this has any impact on their bringing a revelation from God. By seeing the prophets as some kind of super men with an immunity to sin... (Some sin at least) it's akin to worship of prophets who were plain and simple human men and women... Or in Islam case just men.. Because you appear to view them as superior to mortal men. The fact a prophet if chosen by God is enough to ensure that the revelation of that prophet is reliable. That's why we are not to believe every prophet who claims to be sent from God, and we must we must test the prophets.
If you don't think committing severe sins , lying , and turning infidel affects dilevering the message , you have a serious issue . You're following a wrong path here . You're saying : It's God who sent those messages so they can never be altered even if the messengers - Me : Exalted is Allah and innocent they are - lie and sin greatly . Well you need to stop right there . Why on Earth would I believe it is actually a message from God and not an innovation of humans ? You skipped step one and moved directly to step two . That's a fallacy . You talk about testing a prophet and at the same time you contradict yourself by not testing him to see if the message is right .
You don't have to believe. There is no argument against faith, faith is immutable.
Well allow me to say that blind faith holds no value . And since faith is immutable , why do you even care about preaching your religion to us who also have faith (Though ours differs of course) ?
You're seriously making a number of fallacies here and there . As for this sentence of yours , what did you depend on to belief it ? Isn't that logic and sense ? You believe it's logical to rely on faith and abandon logic . Does that make sensee ? This statement crumbles on itself and implodes . And when you say that logic can be disproved , you're saying that logic can be disproved by logic and that's simply absurd ! When I say logic I don't mean science . Logic is about the possible and impossible logically - too much "logic" thus far - . For instance , it is simply impossible , no matter what "science" might say and no matter when or where we are for 1+1 to be equal of 3 . Bring Enistein , Newton , and every single scientest and non scientest soul out there and they can never disprove this for eternity . Saying basic logic can be disproved is a crime against intellect .
Yes, agreed he could have chosen a different word... But it's possible not seeing the insult ourselves not recognising that it could be in others. That is why I feel Burninglight should have been given the chance to make amends. However, what is done is done. It is past. That we should all learn lessons from past errors goes some way to make better decisions in the future.
Hold on a second , was he banned permenantly or for a few days ?
Am I to ignore the doubts in my heart? Ignore the glaring inconsistencies I see?
Then what are you here for ? If you don't desire to argue with evidence and discuss it then what's the point ? And don't change the subject into "You are doing it too so I won't stop" . I'm talking about signs , narrations , and a whole body of Muslims probably reaching a number of billions through history . All of that says that according to Islam , the Bible is altered . You're not saying "No , you're wrong , the Bible isn't altered" . You're saying that our religion doesn't say it is ! And believe me , repeating it over and over and OVER gets extremely frustrating . Not to mention that you base your objections on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING . If we were to discuss it , you'd just say "You don't have proof it is corrupted" . And that's a huge fallacy . We're not discussing the evidence of corruption . I'm simply telling you something as simple as that Islam says there is corruption . Another thing you might say is "Why would God let the message be altered" and that's just the same as the last fallacy . I'll be frank and say that you're solely depending on emotions here and not any sort of "inconsistencies
" you claim exist . What's hilarious is that you don't show a single one of those .
I'm just not buying that... Sorry it makes little sense.
It's so bad to the degree of ignoring your own contradiction ?! That's it ? THAT'S your argument ?! You don't "buy" it ?! You don't even try and discuss it ?!
ol.... Here is pot calling kettle black.. :) this is the exact same roundabout I find myself on. Have you any idea how personally frustrating it is to spend an age compiling some post in reply.. Researching ... Getting out my Bible and Quran... Trying to best get the point across to be clearly understood... Only to have my answers ignored totally and told I a few posts later when the same question is asked yet again ... That I never answered the question!!!!
If that happened with other members on the forum , it is not my responsibility . Show me one , I say one instance where I don't go straight to the point . Where I don't state why I think your counter argument is wrong and rather repeat what you answered .
That's a tad too convenient. I have no issue with the scriptures as in the Old and New Testaments.. My issue is the Quran diametrically opposes the previous revelations but you can offer no proof what was changed, when it was changed, who changed it and why they did so?
Here goes the same fallacy . We're not discussing evidence of corruption . I'm stating that Islam says there is corruption . You on the other hand say "No , your belief that your belief is there is corruption is wrong" . That's completely unrelated and a subject for another time . That's what I've been repeating over and over for months . Do you see now why it's frustrating ? I say there is corruption and you escape it with "Quran contradicts the previous message and thus it's wrong" and you COMPLETELY ignore that I JUST stated the message isn't the original one ! THAT'S where you're going astray from the critical point .
For the Quran to be true the Bible has to be false, yet if the Bible is false the Quran is not what it claims to be because it claims to confirm the previous scriptures
Pandora , I'm still holding my nerves . Don't get me to snap . You're here talking to an imaginary person when you state a rule we don't agree on that says "Quran says the messages of the people of the book are divine and thus when it says they are not it is contradicting" . You simply ignore what we say day in day out : The messages Allah sent were altered by the people of the book but there is truth remaining in them which match Quran . Proving the Bible to be corrupt won't make a problem for anyone except Jews and Christians .
It would be bye impossible a fraud of that scale would not go undiscovered... Unless every Jew were in agreement to change every copy of the Torah in use. Is that likely?
Since I believe in the proof of Islam , I take this by faith . That's why I'll believe that this statement of yours is false . Considering how many times I discover that what I believed with faith is true , I'll do the same here . Again , you're distracting the actual topic . Islam says the people of the book altered the message . End of the story . If you want to debate about wither than is true or not then you have this forum and many others .