Trinity and development of doctorine

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Trinity and development of doctorine

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  1. #61
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    Sorry for my long absence,will be back after the end of Ramadan ISA
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    I asked the admins and they told me that they explained the issue for you. The posts of all members are reviwed first in this section and the islamic section, whether they are muslims or christians. Why are you asking me about issues that the admins already explained to you ?
    I asked you if you were able to post directly after or before 200 posts? This post of yours doesn't answer all my questions concerning this, and it sounds like a brush off evasive response. Why did you even bother responding? Answer all the questions concerning this issue. You already know what the situation is. You answer to God on how honest you were and are. If things are equal regarding posting for both Muslim and Christian, there is no problem peace be unto you.

  3. #63
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    This was my first question
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Address the following :
    1- All what has been mentioned in my posts after your last post.

    You just didn’t bother to answer it
    Quote
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Address the following :
    2- How do you believe that Jesus Pbuh was God although he declared that the Father was the only true God and was his God and although he used to pray to the Father and although he didn't know when was the hour and although he was a man like other men who used to eat, drink, defecate and urinate and who used like other men to have a sexual desire ?.
    I never said Jesus was God the father. I have been consistent to say He is the word of God incarnate or the son of God. He prayed to His father. Prayer is communication. It is not just Him speaking to God but God speaking to Jesus. Jesus calls the father His God, but the father calls Jesus God as well Heb. 1. He also calls Jesus His beloved Son.

    According to Jesus, the Father was his God and the only true God
    So, it seems you believe that the Father is the God of Jesus but still you believe that Jesus is God of everything else
    It is logic that God has no God
    There is no intermediate God who has a God but is the God of everything else
    If the Father is the God of Jesus, then Jesus is not God
    So clear and simple, but you are just denying it because this simple clear fact destroys your faith
    The prayers of Jesus to God were not just communication
    Jesus Pbuh used to bow down and put his face on the ground as we do in our prayers to show his poverty to God and his respect to him, so he is not God for sure

    Mark 14


    35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him.
    36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee. Take away this cup from Me; nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.”
    37 And He came back and found them sleeping, and said unto Peter, “Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest thou not watch one hour?
    38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”

    39 And again He went away and prayed and spoke the same words.
    I answered before your claim that Jesus was called God in Hebrews 1
    I’ll paste what I said again
    Quote
    Answer :

    1- Epistle to Hebrews has been disputed by some of the early christians as mentioned by Eusebius
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....viii.iii.html

    Quote
    . Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine





    Chapter III.—The Epistles of the Apostles.




    5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is dis135
    puted595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place.596 In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul,597 I have not found them among the undisputed writings.598
    2- There is a great debate about the author of epistle to Hebrews


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...to_the_Hebrews

    Quote
    Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote


    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Ahmed\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image 001.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Ahmed\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image 002.png[/IMG]
    The King James Bible 1611 ed. ends the Epistle to the Hebrews with "Written to the Hebrewes, from Italy, by Timothie"

    The author of Hebrews, that is, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, is unknown. Although perhaps the most common theory through the ages has been that Paul the Apostle is the author,[1] most modern scholars generally agree that it was not written by him.[2] Since thethird century A.D. doubts have been raised about the identity of the true author. It is one of the Antilegomena—New Testament books whose canonicity was initially somewhat disputed.[3]
    Some scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[4]



    Though the writing style varies from Paul in a number of ways, no author is internally named in the letter, and the authorship has been debated since the earliest days of the Church, there still are some who regard the apostle Paul as the writer of Hebrews due to some similarities noted in phrasings, and the similar focus on Christ's superior plan of salvation.[5] Editions of the King James Version of the Bible usually place a heading over Hebrews with the words, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." However, that attribution was not part of the original document of Hebrews, but was added several hundred years later by scribes copying the book who believed Paul to be the author.[6]



    3- This sentence is just taken from Psalm 45
    The jews just translate it into ( Judge) instead of (God), which means that the phrase in Psalms 45 may not be referring to God at all, but the author translated it in this way to prove deity of christ
    See Rashi's commentary on the Tanach

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

    Quote
    [TABLE="class: Co_TanachTable rashi_on, width: 100%"]

    Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

    4- Christian unitarians don't believe that Heb1 proves deity of Christ
    Please read this whole page, written by christians not jews or muslims :

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vid...-christ-as-god


    Quote
    How about Psalm 45, another prophecy about the Messiah—this one about him riding forth victoriously to conquer and then rule the earth as God’s perfect representative. Verses 6 and 7 are quoted in Hebrews 1:8 and 9, which is where we will go next. Sad to say that in verse 6 the word “god” is once again mis-capitalized as “God.” No, like Psalm 82 and Isaiah 9:6, this psalm is also speaking of the Man among men, the one whom God would empower to restore His lost Paradise.OK, let’s look at Hebrews 1, and the context of the quote from Psalm 45. For the record, Hebrews 1 and 2 are a trenchant account of Jesus Christ’s journey from suffering to glory, emphasizing why he had to be a man (the Last Adam) in order to be the Redeemer of mankind. They are covered in detail in Chapters 2 and 3 of our One God & One Lordbook. Hebrews 1:1-3 shows how God did His best in Old Testament times to communicate to mankind via the spoken and written words of the prophets, but what He really had in mind was Jesus, His ultimate image. Verse 4 then begins a most significant analogy between Jesus and the angels that goes all the way through Chapter 2.
    Verses 5, 6, and 7, each quoting an Old Testament reference, are speaking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v. 5—it’s not about his birth—look at Ps. 2:7 & Acts 13:33) and his return to the earth to rule (v. 6). Verse 8 clarifies that Psalm 45:6 and 7 are a Messianic prophecy, but the translators once again mis-capitalize “god” as “God.” But look at verse 9! It says, “…therefore God, even your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Say, if one is God, how can anyone else be his “God”? That should be a more frequently asked question! In agreement with many other verses of Scripture, Hebrews 1:9 is clearly saying that because Jesus Christ suffered and died, God raised him from the dead and highly exalted (anointed) him as Lord.
    5- Let's read the whole verse from Psalms 45 or Heb 1

    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has anointed you
    with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

    It is actually clear here that the speaker is addressing ( God) and then addressing someone else telling him (your God)
    Surely, God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (your God)
    Probably the one whom the speaker here addressed telling him (Your God) is king David or king Solomon and the christians will insist that the speaker is speaking to Jesus Pbuh
    Even if we want to say that the speaker is speaking to only one person, we will have to accept the translation of the jews (O judge) instead that of christians (O God) because simply God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (Your God)

    I also answered before your claim that since Jesus Pbuh was called – according to the Bible – (my beloved Son) then he is divine
    I’ll paste my answer again
    Quote
    Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved son
    According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
    So what's the difference?
    The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
    But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!

    Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12

    17
    This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…

    So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?

    Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
    If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.


    Quote
    I also said since Jesus is the word of God, he is eternal and uncreated. That is why Jesus is the only prophet that could say before Abraham was I am or the only prophet that could forgive sin and accept worship as Jesus did. Jesus was limited as man. He was less than God in function, office and position , but equal in nature, essence and character. That is why he could say "If you have seen me you have seen the father"This thoroughly answers this question.


    I answered all these points
    First of all, the Bible doesn’t support your belief that Jesus Pbuh was uncreated, according to the Bible Jesus is the first creation
    14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV)
    And since Jesus is God’s creation, therefore he is not God
    This was my answer to (Before Abraham was, I am)
    Quote
    Let's suppose that Jesus Pbuh really said : ( Before Abraham I am )
    Does this really prove that he is God?

    See, compare this to the hadith of prophet Muhammad Pbuh :
    ""I was a Prophet when Adam was between bodyandsoul"

    Prophet Muhammad Pbuh doesn't want to say that he was physically present before Adam was created, he just wants to say that his prophethood was determined by God and was known to God before Adam's creation

    The same applies to ( Before Abraham, I am), it doesn't mean that Jesus Pbuh was physically present before Abraham, it means that his prophethood was determined by God and known to God since earlier stages.

    Read Jeremiah 1 also :


    4 The Lord’s word came to me:
    5 “Before I created you in the womb I knew you;
    before you were born I set you apart;



    I made you a prophet to the nations.”

    Do you think that this means that Jeremiah was physically present as a prophet before he was born ?

    This was my answer to Jesus forgiving sins
    Quote
    Well, according to the Bible, the disciples have the authority to forgive sins too
    John 20
    21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.”22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.”

    Are the disciples divine too?
    If you say no, but they were given the authority to forgive the sins from God, I'll tell you ok, so why doesn't the same apply to Jesus? Why don't you say he was given the authority to forgive sins from God?

    This was my answer to your claim that Jesus accepted worship
    Quote
    You claim that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship, you think this is true because the english translations of the Bible say that people worshipped Jesus. The word that is translated to worship is
    προσκυνεο

    which may just mean kneel or bow

    This is the meaning of this word from the Netbible website :




    [TR]
    [TD="class: content"]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons[/TD]
    [/TR]


    What you didn’t comment on is that Jesus said that the Father is the only true God, so he is not God neither the Holy Spirit is God
    Let me paste what I said again
    Quote
    Actually Jesus Pbuh was teaching that the only God is the Father, this is what we believe in.
    John 17
    3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
    So according to the teaching of Jesus Pbuh, the Father is the only true God. According to your which Jesus Pbuh never taught, there are 3 persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit.
    Can't you see the major difference between what the church is teaching and what the Christ was teaching ?
    The major difference is very clear, if you deny it because you don't want to see it I won't be able to help you. It's your choice to either admit this clear and obvious difference or to deny it, but you are responsible for your choice, it's either an eternal life in paradise or an eternal life in hell.

    Also you didn’t comment on the fact that prophet Jesus Pbuh as a normal man used to have sexual desire, used to urinate and defecate
    This is ok for all humankind including prophets, but God for sure is not like this
    My question to you is do you believe that your God used to have sexual desire, wet dreams, urinate and defecate?
    Also do you think of Jesus as an intermediate God who had his own God the Father but yet he is the God of everything else? I hope you don't believe this nonsense
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    3- If you admit that the Bible contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts, how do you believe it is the word of God? How do you trust the stories of the Bible? Who knows maybe they are wrong like other errors in the Bible? Maybe the story of the crucifixion and rising again in the third day is a false story. Who knows? How can you trust the Bible as a source of your faith if it contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts?.
    Because the central gospel message is totally and completely in tact. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe Jesus is the word of God. The Bible contains a lot of the words of God, but it is like a story or history book of man's failures and God's interaction and interventions. It is sought of like your hadiths and nothing like the Quran is supposed to be. I don't believe the Quran is God's word either. Now, I believe God can speak to us in a small still voice using Scripture; then it becomes the word of God to us. This answers your question here as well.
    Actually, it doesn't answer anything at all. How do you know that the message of the gospel is completely true and intact?
    If the Bible contains errors and contradictions, how can I trust it as a source of my faith?
    If some parts of the Bible are spurious, why shouldn't other parts too be spurious?
    How do you know that Jesus was really raised in the third day? Maybe this was just a rumor at this time, that was written in the Gospels. How do you know?
    Maybe Paul was just teaching the people false doctorines and his messages were collected in the Bible.
    Maybe nothing was created through the Christ and this was a false teaching taught by Paul and the author of the fourth gospel.
    If there are spurious parts in the Bible, then it is not a trusted source for faith.
    Give me just one reason to believe that the message of the Bible is true and intact.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  5. #65
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    4- How do you explain the false prophecies of the Bible and the true prophecies of Islam?.
    There are no false prophecies in the Bible, and there are no prophecies I know of in the Quran. Saying someone will win a battle and that happens could be a lucky guess or a calculated probability and not a prophecy. [/QUOTE]

    Let me paste what I said again
    I gave you before an example of a false prophecy in the Bible and a true islamic prophecy

    Quote
    Quote

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    3- The holy Quran and the Sunnah contain some miracles and prophecies that turned out to be true..
    All the prophecies in the Bible turn out to be true, and some are yet to be fulfilled.



    Well even if some of the prophecies of the Bible were true, what's the problem ?
    According to my faith, some parts of Bible sre true and some are false, so if some of the prophecies of the Bible are true ,they are from the true parts that were really inspired by God.
    But according to you, the Quran is not inspired by God and it is just written by prophet Muhammad Pbuh, so how could the prophecies of the quran and sunnah turn out to be true? What about the scientific miracles of the Quran?
    Probably we can talk later about these prophecy and scientific miracles in details.
    But for the time being you can watch this video


    You can also read the Hadith about the talking shoes here :
    http://islamicapologetics1.blogspot....y-prophet.html
    Watch this also
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...king-shoe.html

    Compare this to the false prophecies in the Bible
    Matthew 16
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
    28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    So the bible is prophesizing that some of those who saw the Christ won't die till they witness the second coming of the Christ and it's now 2000 years since the christ was alive on earth and those people died and their sons died and their grandsons died and the Christ didn't return yet.
    This is an example of a true islamic prophecy, but of course there are many other prophecies that we can discuss in details if you want to
    Here, you can find few of these prophecies
    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    5- How do you explain the plagarism of the concept of the Logos by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo who was a heretic jew that was alive at the time of Jesus Pbuh ?.
    I had answered this in another thread mentioning your name, because you closed this thread and now opened it again. Make up your mind keep it open or closed. Philo and John could've gotten that information from a common source, but this cannot be said about the virgin birth of Jesus; it could only have been borrowed from the original source which is the NT Bible. Therefore, the reason the original source gives for Jesus' virgin birth should be accepted and not a secondary source that imperfectly borrows from the original Scriptures.
    Well, I bet you yourself know that what you're saying here is just nonsense.
    Philo was just a jewish heretic, he made up these ideas, Jesus Pbuh and Philo were living at the same time, the author of the fourth gospel may have been young at the time of Jesus Pbuh or may have been born shortly after him and probably lived at the same age of Philo who died at 50 AC. He simply just copied these ideas about half a century after the death of Philo and added them to his gospel at the end of the first century and claimed that Jesus was the lagos or the word. I don't know what on earth arguing about? It is very very clear but you can't admit this simple fact because it destroys your religion.
    If you claim that there was a common source they were getting the information from, tell us what is this source and prove that this source is authentic and also prove that the lagos was Jesus. Your argument is very very weak, you are just grasping on straws to support your faith, so you'd better stop this.
    Regarding the virgin birth, again you are just repeating the same nonsense and you will get the same answer, the virgin birth is a true story, Luke knew about it because he's been doing an effort to collect data about Jesus as he mentioned in the opening of his letter to Theophilus, which has been later on considered by the church as the word of God, although it's just a letter written by Luke.
    600 years later, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh became a messenger and God gave him the holy Quran which contains the true stories of the previous prophets. This is why the holy Quran sometimes agrees with the Bible and sometimes contradicts it. The Quran agrees with the Bible in the virgin birth of Jesus and contradicts it in his crucifiction. Sometimes the Quran mentions stories that are not mentioned in the Bible like stories of Prophet Hud and Prophet Saleh, so it's not just copying from the Bible, at least you can not give a 100% solid proof of your claim.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I didn't see this link. Please post it again, but note that Catholics are not necessarily Biblical Christians. If they worship Mary, consider her divine, and transformed into God, they are not following Christianity, and they are committing idolatry. I have seen Catholics kissing stone statues of saints and Mary in the church, but I don't see how that is any different than Muslims kissing a black stone at the Kaaba. Most Catholic Christians resemble adherents to Islam, IMHO. Most Catholics are nominal Christians. I see Islam as a reaction to Catholicism which is a misconception of true Biblical Christianity like you are hearing from yours truly.
    How many times do you have to put this link so that you can read it? I'm really afraid that you are missing a lot of what I'm saying.
    Here you are again :
    Quote
    Read this :
    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

    Here are some quotes from this link


    [pg. 416]
    Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency.Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..


    [pg. 419]
    Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...

    [pg. 421]
    Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...


    [pg. 16]
    27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her.
    Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.

    28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that
    Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
    It's not important to me whether you think those who consider Mary divine are true christians or are pagans, the important issue is that there are people who consider Mary divine or peole who took her a god, besides those who worship her without saying she is divine, according to arabic language, those have taken her also a god, the holy Quran is speaking about both. The important issue is that there is no error in the holy Quran at all as you are claiming.
    Kissing the black stone is certainly different than worshipping Mary. We kiss the black stone but we know that it is a stone that can't benefit anyone or harm him. We know it is just a stone that has no power at all. While those who worship Mary, ask her to forgive them and help them, they think she has an extraordinary power, they don't think of her as a normal woman, they pray to her and worship her. We don't do this with the black stone of course.

    Notice 2 things:
    1- See the difference between my answer and your answer. I answer everything you say in details, I take a long time to prepare a good answer, you just answer short answers quickly without commenting on most issues I am discussing.
    2- You keep repeating what you say without taking into consideration my answers, this is why most of my recent answers are just pasted from previous answers.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    What is the trinitarian god like?

    According to Christian apologist William Lane Craig (who James White refers to as “the leading apologist in the English speaking world today”) the very best analogy he can think of for the Christian god is the mythological three headed-beast Cerberus (see the charming picture). See Craig explain his .

    Cerberus is a dog who guarded the entrance to Hades, the ancient Greek idea of Hell. Craig thinks that it is a great analogy of the doctrine of the Trinity:

    One dog with three minds.

    Now I have a confession to make : I completely agree with James White’s devastating critique of Craig found .



    As the Almighty God said in his final revelation:
    O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you.Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is God as Disposer of affairs.


    Quran 4:171
    أين الذين هم الرجال إذا دعوا هبوا وإن دوى النفير أغاروا
    يا مسلمون ومن سواكم للحمى إن كشرت عن نابها الأخطار
    الله أكبر في الحياة نشيدنا نور على درب الكفاح ونار


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    *اسلامي عزي* is offline خادم رسول الله
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    Quote Originally Posted by عبد الرحيم1 View Post
    What is the trinitarian god like?
    According to Christian apologist William Lane Craig (who James White refers to as “the leading apologist in the English speaking world today”) the very best analogy he can think of for the Christian god is the mythological three headed-beast Cerberus (see the charming picture). See Craig explain his god/dog idea here.

    Really , this is the funniest thing i' ever heard
    May Allah bless you brother .




    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

    أنقر(ي) فضلا أدناه :


    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



    اللهمّ اهدنا و اهد بنا ،

    اللهمّ لا سهل إلا ما جعلته سهلاً، وأنت تجعل الحزن إذا شئت يارب سهلاً، اللهمّ سهّل علينا أمورنا واجعل أعمالنا خالصة لوجهك الكريم نلقاك بها يارب يوم
    الدين.

    آمين... آمين... آمين.



    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي



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Trinity and development of doctorine

Trinity and development of doctorine