Trinity and development of doctorine

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Trinity and development of doctorine

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  1. #31
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    Excuse me, I will close this thread till I finish my answer completely so that you don't interrupt me. As soon as I finish my answer, I'll open the thread and give you the chance to answer. I expect finishing my answer tomorrow.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation.
    Actually I don't see a difference between ( the beginning of the creation of God) and ( the begiining of God's creation)
    Here is another translation saying that the Christ is the beginning of God's creation :
    14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV)
    http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re3.14

    Now, do you see that the Bible is clearly stating that Jesus Pbuh is created by God or you will just keep arguing ?

    What's strange is that you are arguing about whether Jesus Pbuh is God's creation or not and you are ignoring that Jesus Pbuh in the same chapter in revelation said more than once that the Father was his God?

    Read revelation 3 :

    11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.

    12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

    13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

    14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)

    So now do you believe that the Father is the God of the Christ ?

    How on earth can the Christ be God if the Father is his God? How can he be God while he himself has a God?


    Quote
    IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
    Do you know that your concept of Jesus Pbuh being the word of God or the logos by which you mean that Jesus is divine and he is the power or the word through which God created everything is just taken from Philo, a helenized jew that was living at the same time when Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC - 50 AD) ?
    Philo said that God created everything by the Logos, the author of the fourth Gospel just plagarized the concept of the Logos from Philo and just added that the Christ is the Logos?
    Read this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Philo_of_Alexandria

    Quote
    Logos in Hellenistic Judaism[edit]

    In the Septuagint the term logos is used for the word of God in the creation of heaven in Psalm 33:6, and in some related contexts.
    Philo of Alexandria[edit]

    Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matterand perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[28] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."[28] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."[29]
    Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[28] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible(Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.[28]
    Christianity[edit]

    Christ the Logos[edit]

    Main article: Logos (Christianity)

    In principio erat verbum, Latin for In the beginning was the Word, from theClementine Vulgate, Gospel of John, 1:1–18.

    The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:[30]
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.[31]
    John also explicitly identifies the Logos with Jesus:
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"[32]
    As theologian Frank Stagg writes: As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God,[Jn 1:1] ... Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God".[Jn 1:1] God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption.[33]
    .......................................
    Early Christian writers[edit]

    Following John 1, the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr (c 150) identified Jesus as the Logos.[49][50] Like Philo, Justin also identified the Logos with the Angel of the Lord, and used this as a way of arguing for Christianity to Jews:
    I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos[51]
    In his First Apology, Justin used the Stoic concept of the Logos as a way of arguing for Christianity to non-Jews. Since a Greek audience would accept this concept, his argument could concentrate on identifying this Logos with Jesus.[49] However, Justin does not go so far as to articulate a fully consistent doctrine of the Logos.[49]
    Do you now believe that the concept of the Logos was just copied from Philo ?

  3. #33
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    So now, what you can't deny, is that Philo who lived while Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC-50 AD), is the one who developed the concept of the Logos or the word as a divine being and according to Philo the logos is the first born of God and through the Logos, God created the universe. Philo was a jew who didn't believe in Jesus Pbuh, he was just a heretic according to the Jews.
    The author of the fourth gospel, at the end of the first century, after the death of Philo by around 50 years, just plagarized what Philo said about the Logos or the word and just did one addition, he claimed that this Logos or Word is Jesus Pbuh.
    My point is that you can't read John 1 and tell me, it proves that Jesus is God. You can't tell me
    "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" proves that Jesus is God. It just proves that the author of this gospel is copying from heretic jews and that your faith is just built upon this plagarism.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  4. #34
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    or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
    Answer :

    1- Epistle to Hebrews has been disputed by some of the early christians as mentioned by Eusebius
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....viii.iii.html

    Quote
    . Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine





    Chapter III.—The Epistles of the Apostles.




    5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is dis135
    puted595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place.596 In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul,597 I have not found them among the undisputed writings.598
    2- There is a great debate about the author of epistle to Hebrews

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...to_the_Hebrews

    Quote
    Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    The King James Bible 1611 ed. ends the Epistle to the Hebrews with "Written to the Hebrewes, from Italy, by Timothie"

    The author of Hebrews, that is, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, is unknown. Although perhaps the most common theory through the ages has been that Paul the Apostle is the author,[1] most modern scholars generally agree that it was not written by him.[2] Since thethird century A.D. doubts have been raised about the identity of the true author. It is one of the Antilegomena—New Testament books whose canonicity was initially somewhat disputed.[3]
    Some scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[4]


    Though the writing style varies from Paul in a number of ways, no author is internally named in the letter, and the authorship has been debated since the earliest days of the Church, there still are some who regard the apostle Paul as the writer of Hebrews due to some similarities noted in phrasings, and the similar focus on Christ's superior plan of salvation.[5] Editions of the King James Version of the Bible usually place a heading over Hebrews with the words, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." However, that attribution was not part of the original document of Hebrews, but was added several hundred years later by scribes copying the book who believed Paul to be the author.[6]

    3- This sentence is just taken from Psalm 45
    The jews just translate it into ( Judge) instead of (God), which means that the phrase in Psalms 45 may not be referring to God at all, but the author translated it in this way to prove deity of christ
    See Rashi's commentary on the Tanach
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

    Quote
    [TABLE="class: Co_TanachTable rashi_on, width: 100%"]

    Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

    4- Christian unitarians don't believe that Heb1 proves deity of Christ
    Please read this whole page, written by christians not jews or muslims :
    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vid...-christ-as-god


    Quote
    How about Psalm 45, another prophecy about the Messiah—this one about him riding forth victoriously to conquer and then rule the earth as God’s perfect representative. Verses 6 and 7 are quoted in Hebrews 1:8 and 9, which is where we will go next. Sad to say that in verse 6 the word “god” is once again mis-capitalized as “God.” No, like Psalm 82 and Isaiah 9:6, this psalm is also speaking of the Man among men, the one whom God would empower to restore His lost Paradise.OK, let’s look at Hebrews 1, and the context of the quote from Psalm 45. For the record, Hebrews 1 and 2 are a trenchant account of Jesus Christ’s journey from suffering to glory, emphasizing why he had to be a man (the Last Adam) in order to be the Redeemer of mankind. They are covered in detail in Chapters 2 and 3 of our One God & One Lordbook. Hebrews 1:1-3 shows how God did His best in Old Testament times to communicate to mankind via the spoken and written words of the prophets, but what He really had in mind was Jesus, His ultimate image. Verse 4 then begins a most significant analogy between Jesus and the angels that goes all the way through Chapter 2.
    Verses 5, 6, and 7, each quoting an Old Testament reference, are speaking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v. 5—it’s not about his birth—look at Ps. 2:7 & Acts 13:33) and his return to the earth to rule (v. 6). Verse 8 clarifies that Psalm 45:6 and 7 are a Messianic prophecy, but the translators once again mis-capitalize “god” as “God.” But look at verse 9! It says, “…therefore God, even your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Say, if one is God, how can anyone else be his “God”? That should be a more frequently asked question! In agreement with many other verses of Scripture, Hebrews 1:9 is clearly saying that because Jesus Christ suffered and died, God raised him from the dead and highly exalted (anointed) him as Lord.
    5- Let's read the whole verse from Psalms 45 or Heb 1

    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has anointed you
    with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

    It is actually clear here that the speaker is addressing ( God) and then addressing someone else telling him (your God)
    Surely, God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (your God)
    Probably the one whom the speaker here addressed telling him (Your God) is king David or king Solomon and the christians will insist that the speaker is speaking to Jesus Pbuh
    Even if we want to say that the speaker is speaking to only one person, we will have to accept the translation of the jews (O judge) instead that of christians (O God) because simply God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (Your God)
    Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 08-06-2014 at 01:54 AM.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God.
    I don't know what exactly do you mean? and what is the source of this strange claim?
    You are claiming that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name
    Prove your claim!
    In Islam, God has many names, which are called الأسماء الحسنى ( Alasma Alhusna, which means the best names)
    Many of them are mentioned in the holy Quran, and they are known by all muslims not just Prophet Muhammad Pbuh
    Just prove your claim !

    Quote
    Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity.
    Surely, Allah is God's name.
    Probably you are saying this stupid claim, which many of the christians who don't know arabic keep repeating. On the other hand, you will never find an arab christian saying this claim You know why?
    Because Allah الله is the word used by both muslims and arab christians to refer to God.
    If you read the Bible in arabic, everytime you read the word ( God), the arabic Bible will use the word ( Allah).
    Even Jesus Pbuh used the word Allah. He used to speak in aramaic. Check this link to know the aramaic word for ( God)
    http://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

    You have to write the english word ( God) in the required space, to see the aramaic word, and then tap (searh)
    You will find that this is the pronounciation of the aramaic word is :

    Quote

    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: right"]Pronunciation:[/TD]
    [TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5"](Eastern) AaLaH
    (Western) AaLoH
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    Sure. this word is very close to the arabic word Allah.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    As for the trinity, I have a problem with a god who doesn't understand what Christians believed and still believe about God's tri unity; for instance, Allah implies that the trinity consisted of the son, mother and father with him being the third of three by the way he questions Jesus; "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count the three that Allah alludes to as the three we Christians should desist to say. Allah confirms a misconception when he says: they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" Forgive me if I am not quoting exactly but you get the idea. What Christians called or call God the father the third of three and who called Mary God? Not even the Catholics who worship Mary considered her god or part of the trinity.
    First of all, God didn't say in the Quran that Christians consider virgin Mary to be a part of the trinity
    I challenge you to find any verse in the holy Quran saying that the trinity is composed of the father, mother and son
    You will never be able to find such a thing
    However, God said that he will ask Jesus Pbuh on Judgement day whether he told the people to take him and his mother as gods.
    This is the quranic verse :


    وإذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم أأنت قلت للناس اتخذوني وأمي إلهين من دون الله قال سبحانك ما يكون لي أن أقول ما ليس لي بحقّ إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما في نفسي ولا أعلم ما في نفسك إنك أنت علام الغيوب



    Yusuf Ali
    And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5: 116)

    In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
    So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
    However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
    Read this :
    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

    Here are some quotes from this link


    [pg. 416]
    Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency. Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..


    [pg. 419]
    Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...

    [pg. 421]
    Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...


    [pg. 16]
    27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her.
    Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.

    28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that
    Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.


    Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :




    I don't understand what are you arguing about when you ask who said that God , the father, is the third of three?

    Surely, it is you.
    You believe that there are 3 persons in the Godhead. According to what you believe, God, the father, is a person, Jesus is a person, the Holy spirit is a person, yet they are all ONE GOD. So according to your faith, God, whom you call the Father, is one of three persons in the Godhead or, literally, third of three.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post

    As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus.
    NO, surely this word is referring to David not Jesus Pbuh.
    Let's read Psalms 2 again :

    7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


    The speaker here is saying ( The Lord said to me), so it is clear that he is speaking about himself, not about one of his descendants

    Who is the speaker here?
    It's surely David Pbuh before Jesus was born by hundreds of years.

    The jews understood that the begotten son of God here is king David and they understood from this title that God loves king David, not that king David is divine and that they should worship him.

    Read Rashi's commentary on the Tanach :
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true


    Quote


    [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”[/TD]
    [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
    [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


    [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.[/TD]
    [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
    [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


    [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.[/TD]
    [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
    [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


    [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.[/TD]
    [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
    [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


    [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”[/TD]

    But the author of the epistle to Hebrews, just wanted to prove that Jesus is the son of God from the OT, so he claimed that Psalms 2 and 2 sam. 7 are both about Jesus, although the former is about king David and the latter is about king Solomon.

    Quote
    David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..."
    Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved son
    According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
    So what's the difference?
    The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
    But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!

    Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12

    17This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…

    So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?

    Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
    If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.

    Quote
    There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word.
    I told you before that the concept of the word or logos being divine and being the first born of God and that everything was created through the Logos is just taken from Philo, who was the first to make up these concepts while Christ was alive
    The author of the fourth gospel just took what Philo said and added that Jesus Pbuh is the Logos
    If you think that this is the central gospel message, you are just proving that the central gospel message is plagarized from heretic jews
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    That is why He could forgive sin;
    Well, according to the Bible, the disciples have the authority to forgive sins too
    John 20
    21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.”22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.”

    Are the disciples divine too?
    If you say no, but they were given the authority to forgive the sins from God, I'll tell you ok, so why doesn't the same apply to Jesus? Why don't you say he was given the authority to forgive sins from God?

    Quote
    It is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am"
    Let's suppose that Jesus Pbuh really said : ( Before Abraham I am )
    Does this really prove that he is God?

    See, compare this to the hadith of prophet Muhammad Pbuh : ""I was a Prophet when Adam was between bodyand soul"

    Prophet Muhammad Pbuh doesn't want to say that he was physically present before Adam was created, he just wants to say that his prophethood was determined by God and was known to God before Adam's creation

    The same applies to ( Before Abraham, I am), it doesn't mean that Jesus Pbuh was physically present before Abraham, it means that his prophethood was determined by God and known to God since earlier stages.

    Read Jeremiah 1 also :

    4 The Lord’s word came to me:
    5 “Before I created you in the womb I knew you;
    before you were born I set you apart;


    I made you a prophet to the nations.”

    Do you think that this means that Jeremiah was physically present as a prophet before he was born ?

    Quote
    that is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way.
    Well surely, ( I am the way) doesn't mean ( I am God), it just means ( I, as a messenger from God, show you the way to God)

    Do you want me to ignore that Jesus said that the father is his God, and believe that Jesus himself is God because he said I am the way?


    Quote
    Even Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am"
    I explained to you what Jesus Pbuh meant by ( Before Abraham I am), if he really said it

    Quote
    We must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"

    Peace be unto you friend
    We found that according to the Bible, the Father was Jesus's God, and that Jesus used to pray to God, and that Jesus didn't know when the hour is?
    So we understood that he is the servant of God
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Like you said the term trinity is not in the Bible and 1Jn 5:7 is spurious; moreover, I never said the Bible was the word of God; I said Jesus is the word of God. The Bible is a history book that reports the failures of man and God's intervention with men. Some the Bible is God's direct word to people through prophets, but not all of the Bible is. As I mentioned, it is not like the Quran to where very word in it is verbatim words out of God's mouth. If you find one discrepancy the whole of the Quran fails. It is not that way with the Bible. The Bible is just a book it is dead with out the Spirit of God who quickens the word to us, and that is when it becomes the word of God to us; otherwise, it is just a story that shows the faithfulness of God and the judgment of God and His mercy and love.
    If you believe that the Bible is just a story that contains spurious parts
    How do you know that anything that you read in it is true?

    Quote
    If I don't share what God is saying right now to you, I am not preaching Christ. Jesus is the only word of God, and we experience Him through the Holy Spirit. So we know from Scripture that God is one and Jesus is His word and we know God's spirit convicts us of error and sin. It is not important to me that someone coined the term trinity because I understand the concept and I understand it is not my job to preach of teach it. The biggest thing about true Biblical Christianity which Muhammad and Allah didn't seem to understand is that it is not a religion as much as it is a relationship with God. It is religion that nailed Jesus to the cross. We true Christians that have a relationship with Jesus know God and we can be filled with His Spirit. Our faith is the substance or what we hope for and the proof or evidence of what we don't see. Without faith it is not possible to please our God. Those that come to him must believe that He is and, He rewards those who seek Him diligently. It relationship not religion. It is God by His spirit who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It is not by our works that we can please God; it is by our faith that works by love. When we have this kind of faith, good deeds will be visible. If they are not visible, there is no faith. People can do good deeds and not have faith; that means nothing to God, but it is not possible to have faith without good works just as you cannot have smoke without fire. Nothing anyone can say against the Bible can tear a Christian of His faith once He has truly experience Christ to where God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that God is conforming us to the image of Christ. The path of the just is as a shinning light of day it shines more and more until the perfect day like the noon day sun. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. There are many nominal Christians that convert to Islam who know about Christianity and Jesus, but they don't know Christ personally in relationship. Those the Christians you get that call themselves reverts. They never knew Jesus; they only knew about Him. I know Jesus friend and want to make Him known, but the Jesus I know is not the same Jesus of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons or the Muslims. What we do with this message I shared determines our eternal destiny so help me God.
    Just emotions ......
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    The thread is open again. Sorry for closing it all this time. Kindly answer all my points.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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Trinity and development of doctorine

Trinity and development of doctorine