Trinity and development of doctorine

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شبكة الفرقان الإسلامية شبكة سبيل الإسلام شبكة كلمة سواء الدعوية منتديات حراس العقيدة
البشارة الإسلامية منتديات طريق الإيمان منتدى التوحيد مكتبة المهتدون
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Trinity and development of doctorine

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  1. #11
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    Please tell me were you born into a Muslim family or were you a Christian convert?

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    I was born to a muslim family, but if I had been born to a christian family I would have converted.
    I compared Islam, Christianity and Judaism and I was as fair as possible and I am completely sure that Islam is the true religion
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  3. #13
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    Burninglight, I'd rather we close side talks in other pages and concentrate here or open a new page for dialogue with you. Don't you think this is true?
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Burninglight, I'd rather we close side talks in other pages and concentrate here or open a new page for dialogue with you. Don't you think this is true?
    Yes, I agree with you. You seem to be a knowledgeable person and very busy. When you post does it say your post is awaiting moderator approval? It seems to slow down the dialogue for me. I don't understand why every post must have that happen. IMO, once a person can be trusted not to be rude or use profanity it shouldn't be necessary to check every post. If someone complains or flags a poster that is different. Moreover, when my post gets approved, I notice there is nothing I can do to edit typos and spelling or is it that I don't know how to use the forum yet?
    Peace be unto you all

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    I was born to a muslim family, but if I had been born to a christian family I would have converted.
    I compared Islam, Christianity and Judaism and I was as fair as possible and I am completely sure that Islam is the true religion
    Please do tell me what makes you so sure, because I was born in the Catholic faith and I don't agree with them. My family is upset with me. I found no need to compare Judaism with Christianity as I believe it is an offshoot from it, but between my comparison between Islam and Christianity, I find Christianity to be the true faith. So, we have both made comparisons and contrasted them only to come to different conclusions. I wonder why the discrepancy between us. What did you see that made you stay Muslim? I saw Catholic Christianity was pagan influence, but this is not true of Biblical Christianity. In fact, I stand on Christianity and what has be revealed to us through the torah and gospel as the Quran commands that I do, for I can do no other. I am not sure what you meant by keep from side pages. I don't mind discussion on a variety of topics with different people as well as you

    Peace

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Yes, I agree with you. You seem to be a knowledgeable person and very busy. When you post does it say your post is awaiting moderator approval? It seems to slow down the dialogue for me. I don't understand why every post must have that happen. IMO, once a person can be trusted not to be rude or use profanity it shouldn't be necessary to check every post. If someone complains or flags a poster that is different.
    Burninglight, this is the rule in this forum for everyone whether he is a muslim or a christian. This rule applies for every member and it even applied for me when I was a new member few years ago. The posts of every new member remain pending till they are reviewed and accepted by moderators but after several posts the admins (red colour not blue like me) allow posts from this members to appear directly. I hope you understand this.
    Also, I am currently very busy on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The rest of the week I have more time. I hope this is convinent to you.
    Quote
    Moreover, when my post gets approved, I notice there is nothing I can do to edit typos and spelling or is it that I don't know how to use the forum yet?
    Peace be unto you all
    I am not sure about this and I will ask the admins but I think that when your posts are allowed to appear directly you will have short time after posting in which you will be allowed to edit your post.
    Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 24-05-2014 at 06:49 AM.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Please do tell me what makes you so sure, because I was born in the Catholic faith and I don't agree with them. My family is upset with me. I found no need to compare Judaism with Christianity as I believe it is an offshoot from it, but between my comparison between Islam and Christianity, I find Christianity to be the true faith. So, we have both made comparisons and contrasted them only to come to different conclusions. I wonder why the discrepancy between us. What did you see that made you stay Muslim? I saw Catholic Christianity was pagan influence, but this is not true of Biblical Christianity.
    Well, I'll tell you the reasons briefly and we can discuss them in details afterwards.

    Regarding Christianity :
    1- The beliefs of christians are built on mere conclusions, they were not taught by Christ and not even mentioned frankly in their books.
    Your books do not teach trinity , trinity is just your understanding to the relation between God, the Christ and Holy spirit. Other groups of christians like Arians and Ebonites in the past and Jehova's witnesses currently believe in the same books you believe in but they don't believe in trinity because they understand them in different way.
    Christ didn't say that he is God, he used to pray to God, he refused to be called good because God only is good, he stated that he doesn't know when the hour is. How can I believe that does not when is the hour is God? Do you think this is logic ? How could I believe that he is God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God?

    2- I can't trust the Bible to be the book that is inspired from God without any falsification. The Bible says things about God that I can't believe. I can't believe a story saying that God appeared in the form of man and had a fight with Jacob Pbuh and was not able to defeat him. There are several contradictions and errors in the Bible. The writers of the different manuscripts of the Bible have been adding and omitting words and phrases and Christians admit this. How can I believe that a message that was sent from Luke to Theophilus is the word of God? It's just a message according to its writer.

    Regarding Islam :

    1- Its faith is simple and so clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. Its the same faith in which Moses Pbuh and all the prophets of the old testament believed in.

    2- All the things that some people attack in Islam are in the Bible like Jihad and polygamy .... etc

    3- The holy Quran and the Sunnah contain some miracles and prophecies that turned out to be true.

    4- The Bible clearly prophecizes prophet Muhammad Pbuh.


    Quote
    In fact, I stand on Christianity and what has be revealed to us through the torah and gospel as the Quran commands that I do, for I can do no other. I am not sure what you meant by keep from side pages. I don't mind discussion on a variety of topics with different people as well as you

    Peace
    The Quran speaks about the true Torah and the true Gospel that were inspired to Moses Pbuh and Jesus Pbuh, but the Bible that you have today according to our belief is partially true and partially falsified and Christians admit this.

    I think that it's better if you speak with only one person in the forum in one page. I think this may be better and it will make the discussion much more useful.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

  8. #18
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Regarding Christianity :
    1- The beliefs of christians are built on mere conclusions, they were not taught by Christ and not even mentioned frankly in their books.
    Your books do not teach trinity , trinity is just your understanding to the relation between God, the Christ and Holy spirit. Other groups of christians like Arians and Ebonites in the past and Jehova's witnesses currently believe in the same books you believe in but they don't believe in trinity because they understand them in different way.
    Christ didn't say that he is God, he used to pray to God, he refused to be called good because God only is good, he stated that he doesn't know when the hour is. How can I believe that does not when is the hour is God? Do you think this is logic ? How could I believe that he is God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God?.
    I never said the Bible preaches trinity or that Jesus is God the father. Trinity is not taught so how can I teach on it?, but the concept is there such as God being the father and Jesus being His word who comes from God (Not created) He is eternal and God calls Jesus His son in whom He is well pleased. We know God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. He is therefore the Holy Spirit of truth who lives in us, and He is the seal of salvation or the earnest that we'll be joint heirs with Christ and not slaves of God but true children of God, if we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb of God like the children of Israel were spared by the blood of the lamb. We too have been covered by the Lamb's blood from God who takes away our sin, but this is not so for the unbelievers just like in the day of Moses.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    2- I can't trust the Bible to be the book that is inspired from God without any falsification. The Bible says things about God that I can't believe. I can't believe a story saying that God appeared in the form of man and had a fight with Jacob Pbuh and was not able to defeat him. There are several contradictions and errors in the Bible. The writers of the different manuscripts of the Bible have been adding and omitting words and phrases and Christians admit this. How can I believe that a message that was sent from Luke to Theophilus is the word of God? It's just a message according to its writer..
    It is your choice not to trust it. But how can I trust the Quran when Allah said his word is unalterable and unchangeable? The torah and gospel is his word right? The Bible wasn't written like the Quran. It is mostly written by men who bear witness to what they saw and experienced. If 10 people witness an accident and report it, not all the stories will line up exactly, because they may have seen it from different angles and they may have understood it differently than each other. This doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is a strength and not a doubt. If all their stories lined up perfectly, I would think this was couched.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Regarding Islam :

    1- Its faith is simple and so clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. Its the same faith in which Moses Pbuh and all the prophets of the old testament believed in.
    .
    We can say the same regarding Christianity if we exclude Muhammad.
    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    2- All the things that some people attack in Islam are in the Bible like Jihad and polygamy .... etc
    .
    I attack no such things about Islam. What you say here is true and I agree, but we don't see Christians practicing Jihad and polygamy today as part of their religion; IOW, even though it happened, God is not now commanding us to live like that. I don't have a problem with having more that one wife if your in a country that allows it, and your wife agrees to it, lol, good luck to you on that. This also raises questions such as why did Muhammad have more wives than his revelation allowed, and from what I understand, Muhammad proves that plurality in marriage makes it impossible to treat all wives equally. Why the double standard. Please explain.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    3- The holy Quran and the Sunnah contain some miracles and prophecies that turned out to be true..
    All the prophecies in the Bible turn out to be true, and some are yet to be fulfilled.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    4- The Bible clearly prophecizes prophet Muhammad Pbuh. .
    It is only clear to some Muslims! If it were clear to me, I'd be a Muslim.

    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post

    The Quran speaks about the true Torah and the true Gospel that were inspired to Moses Pbuh and Jesus Pbuh, but the Bible that you have today according to our belief is partially true and partially falsified and Christians admit this.
    .
    What Christians? Bart Erhman is not a Christian. The true torah and gospel was given to Muhammad and Allah didn't say it had a problem; in fact, Muhammad never said it had such a problem; so, if there were, the problem would've had to happen some time after Muhammad's death, but we can prove nothing as changed since then. The burden of proof is on you to show who changed the Bible when and where, give the motive and so on. If the Bible is so messed up, why did Muhammad borrow from it particularly the NT Bible such stories as the virgin birth of Jesus. It cannot be found in any other books, and yet Islam rejects the reason for Jesus' virgin birth. Please explain that.

    I can discuss with you, but with others as well, because you are so busy that your responses come so few and far between.

    Peace to you brother of humanity

  9. #19
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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    Regarding Christianity :
    1- The beliefs of christians are built on mere conclusions, they were not taught by Christ and not even mentioned frankly in their books.
    Your books do not teach trinity , trinity is just your understanding to the relation between God, the Christ and Holy spirit. Other groups of christians like Arians and Ebonites in the past and Jehova's witnesses currently believe in the same books you believe in but they don't believe in trinity because they understand them in different way.
    Christ didn't say that he is God, he used to pray to God, he refused to be called good because God only is good, he stated that he doesn't know when the hour is. How can I believe that does not when is the hour is God? Do you think this is logic ? How could I believe that he is God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God?.
    I never said the Bible preaches trinity or that Jesus is God the father. Trinity is not taught so how can I teach on it?, but the concept is there such as God being the father and Jesus being His word who comes from God (Not created) He is eternal and God calls Jesus His son in whom He is well pleased. We know God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. He is therefore the Holy Spirit of truth who lives in us, and He is the seal of salvation or the earnest that we'll be joint heirs with Christ and not slaves of God but true children of God, if we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb of God like the children of Israel were spared by the blood of the lamb. We too have been covered by the Lamb's blood from God who takes away our sin, but this is not so for the unbelievers just like in the day of Moses.
    I really respect these words :
    Quote
    I never said the Bible preaches trinity or that Jesus is God the father. Trinity is not taught so how can I teach on it?
    Quote
    It's quite rare to find a christian admitting this. Most of the christians consider that trinity is the cornerstone of their faith. So it's quite good that you think you don't have to teach trinity.

    Quote
    but the concept is there such as God being the father and Jesus being His word who comes from God (Not created) He is eternal and God calls Jesus His son in whom He is well pleased.
    The Bible states clearly that the Christ is God's creation.
    Read revelation 3 :

    11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
    12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
    13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
    14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)
    The second thing is that according to your scriptures the Christ is the first creation of God
    So your scriptures actually say the opposite of what you believe

    We believe that Jesus Pbuh is the word of God, but this doesn't mean to us that he has a divine nature by any means. He is the word of God because God created him by his word and order and power in a way that opposes all the laws of nature.

    The Bible says in some of its parts that Jesus Pbuh is the son of God. Let's suppose that these parts are authentic and not fabricated. What does the word (son of God) mean according to the Bible? Does the word (son of God) mean God himself or a being of a divine nature? or it just means someone who is good, close to God and beloved by God?

    In psalms 2, king David Pbuh was described as the born son of God

    Psalms 2

    7 I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
    12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.


    Here David Pbuh is described as the begotten son of God and he is given the same title that you give to the Christ ( the Son)
    Do you understand from this that king David was God? or was the second member of the trinity? or was equal to God? or had a divine nature?

    Both king Solomon Pbuh and Jacob Pbuh were described as son of God, do you think they are divine?

    How could Jesus Pbuh be divine if he himself used to worship God? How could he be God while he himself addressed the Father as (my God)? How could he be divine although he doesn't know when the hour is ? How could he be God and in the same time refuse to be called good because only God is good ?

    How could he be divine while he as a man used to eat, drink, defecate and urinate? How could Jesus Pbuh be divine if he as a man had a sexual desire?

    Quote
    We know God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. He is therefore the Holy Spirit of truth who lives in us
    See how you are just making your faith out of mere conclusions
    The Bible states that God is spirit, so you just conclude from this that God is the (Holy spirit)
    The phrase that says God is a spirit, it simply means that God has no physical body, God has no body made of cells and organs to which the laws of physics and biology apply
    You just take this phrase and jump from it to the conclusion that God is the (Holy spirit)
    Jesus Pbuh said that the Father is the only true God, God is only the father according to Jesus Pbuh, which means that neither the Son nor the Holy spirit are God or are divine

    John 17
    3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

    So the eternal life according to Jesus Pbuh is to know that the Father is the only true God
    But according to the faith of trinity, the Father is a person, the Son is a person, the Holy spirit is a person and each is a god, but they are all finally not 3 persons, they are only 1 person who is God which is a completely different concept from what Christ was teaching people



    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman View Post
    2- I can't trust the Bible to be the book that is inspired from God without any falsification. The Bible says things about God that I can't believe. I can't believe a story saying that God appeared in the form of man and had a fight with Jacob Pbuh and was not able to defeat him. There are several contradictions and errors in the Bible. The writers of the different manuscripts of the Bible have been adding and omitting words and phrases and Christians admit this. How can I believe that a message that was sent from Luke to Theophilus is the word of God? It's just a message according to its writer..
    It is your choice not to trust it. But how can I trust the Quran when Allah said his word is unalterable and unchangeable? The torah and gospel is his word right? The Bible wasn't written like the Quran. It is mostly written by men who bear witness to what they saw and experienced. If 10 people witness an accident and report it, not all the stories will line up exactly, because they may have seen it from different angles and they may have understood it differently than each other. This doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is a strength and not a doubt. If all their stories lined up perfectly, I would think this was couched.
    Quote
    But how can I trust the Quran when Allah said his word is unalterable and unchangeable? The torah and gospel is his word right?
    Here there is a misunderestanding.
    The holy Quran states that the words of God are unaltered and unchangeable.
    The words of God here means his promises and his judgement must be fulfilled, no one can change them.
    Please, read this article :
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re..._do_not_change
    You will find the answer to what you are saying in details.
    See what Imam Al-Qurtubi, a muslim scholar, said in his tafseer (explanation) to the Quran:
    Al Ramaani narrated on the authority of Qataadah who said: There is no change in the judgment of God. Even if one were to change and substitute the words just as the people of the book did with the Torah and Gospel, God doesn't consider this.(Abu 'Abdullah Al-Qurtubi, Tasfir al Jami' li-ahkam al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 6:115)

    Both the holy Quran and the Bible state that the Bible was fabricated
    The holy Quran says :
    "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' to traffic with it for a miserable price!Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.” (The Noble Qur'an, 2:77-79)

    So the Quran says that the jews and christians ( some of them of course) just write the book with their own hands and then claim it's from God, and the Quran states that they will be punished for this

    The Bible says :
    International Standard Version 2 Peter 3:16
    He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.

    The people are distorting the scriptures

    Jeremiah 23:36 BBEBible in Basic English
    And you will no longer put people in mind of the word of weight of the Lord: for every man's word will be a weight on himself; for the words of the living God, of the Lord of armies, our God, have been twisted by you
    Again the words of God are just twisted by the jews

    Let's see examples of twisting the words of God or falsification of the Bible

    1- The old testament according to the Catholic and the orthdox churches consists of 46 books while according to the Protestant church it consists of 39 books.
    Are the 7 debatable books the word of God or the word of man ?
    If they are God's word, the Protestants have falsified the scripture by omitting 7 chapters, and if they are not the word of God then the Catholics and the Orthodox have falsified the scripture by adding 7 chapters. How do you explain this?

    2- 1 John 5:7

    Let's compare the different translations of the Bible

    http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-7.htm

    Quote
    New International Version
    For there are three that testify:

    New Living Translation
    So we have these three witnesses--

    English Standard Version
    For there are three that testify:

    New American Standard Bible
    For there are three that testify:

    King James Bible
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    For there are three that testify:

    International Standard Version
    For there are three witnesses —

    NET Bible
    For there are three that testify,

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    There are three witnesses:

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

    King James 2000 Bible
    For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

    American King James Version
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    American Standard Version
    And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

    Darby Bible Translation
    For they that bear witness are three:

    English Revised Version
    And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

    Weymouth New Testament
    For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

    World English Bible
    For there are three who testify:

    Young's Literal Translation
    because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
    Some translations contain the phrase : ( the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one ) , others do not.
    This is not a difference in translation, it's a difference in a phrase, and not any phrase, the only phrase which frankly explains the faith of trinity in the Bible
    Let's see what christian commentaries say about this phrase

    Pulpit Commentary ( on the same link)

    Verse 7. - For those who bear witness are three, and thus constitute full legal testimony (Deuteronomy 17:6; Deuteronomy 19:15; Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1). It will be assumed here, without discussion, that the remainder of this verse and the first clause of verse 8 are spurious. Words which are not contained in a single Greek uncial manuscript, nor in a single Greek cursive earlier than the fourteenth century (the two which contain the passage being evidently translated from the Vulgate), nor are quoted by a single Greek Father during the whole of the Trinitarian controversy, nor are found in any authority until late in the fifth century, cannot be genuine.

    So according to christian scholars, some of the parts of the Bible are spurious. The only part that frankly explains Trinity is spurious.

    Let's go to the Netbible
    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+John+5:20

    20 tc Before τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα (to pneuma kai to {udwr kai to |aima), the Textus Receptus(TR) reads ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι. 5:8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8And there are three that testify on earth”). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence – both external and internal – is decidedly against its authenticity.

    So according to christian scholars, some of the parts of the Bible are not authentic.

    3- Mark 16: 9-16

    Let's see what the netbible says
    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Mark+16:9

    Quote
    tc The Gospel of Mark ends at this point in some witnesses (א B 304 sys sams armmss Eus EusmssHiermss), including two of the most respected mss (א B). The following shorter ending is found in some mss: “They reported briefly to those around Peter all that they had been commanded. After these things Jesus himself sent out through them, from the east to the west, the holy and imperishable preaching of eternal salvation. Amen.” This shorter ending is usually included with the longer ending (L Ψ 083 099 0112 579al); k, however, ends at this point. Most mss include the longer ending (vv. 9-20) immediately after v. 8 (A C D W [which has a different shorter ending between vv. 14 and 15] Θ Ë13 33 2427 Ï lat syc,p,h bo); however, Jerome and Eusebius knew of almost no Greek mss that had this ending. Several mss have marginal comments noting that earlier Greek mss lacked the verses, while others mark the text with asterisks or obeli (symbols that scribes used to indicate that the portion of text being copied was spurious). Internal evidence strongly suggests the secondary nature of both the short and the long endings. Their vocabulary and style are decidedly non-Markan (for further details, see TCGNT 102-6). All of this evidence strongly suggests that as time went on scribes added the longer ending, either for the richness of its material or because of the abruptness of the ending at v. 8. (Indeed, the strange variety of dissimilar endings attests to the probability that early copyists had a copy of Mark that ended at v. 8, and they filled out the text with what seemed to be an appropriate conclusion. All of the witnesses for alternative endings to vv. 9-20 thus indirectly confirm the Gospel as ending at v. 8.) Because of such problems regarding the authenticity of these alternative endings, 16:8 is usually regarded as the last verse of the Gospel of Mark.


    So you have half a chapter at the end of Mark's gospel which is considered by christian scholars to be spurious and non-authentic.



    Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 25-05-2014 at 12:20 AM.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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    Compare the opening of Luke's gospel to the openings of some of the suras (chapters) of the Quran

    This is the beginning of Luke's gospel

    1 Many people have already applied themselves to the task of compiling an account of the events that have been fulfilled among us.2 They used what the original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed down to us.3 Now, after having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, I have also decided to write a carefully ordered account for you, most honorable Theophilus.4 I want you to have confidence in the soundness of the instruction you have received.

    Do you think that St. Luke himself knew that he was inspired by God to write God's word? or he was just writing a letter to a person named Theophilus and this letter was considered afterwards by the church to be God's word ?

    Compare this to the holy Quran

    Let's read the opening of surat aljathiya in the Quran (Youssef Ali translation):Ha-Mim.
    The revelation of the book from Allah the Exalted in Power, Full of wisdom. (45:1-2)


    Which of these openings do you think is an opening of a chapter of a book revealed from God?
    Do you see the difference?

    Quote
    The Bible wasn't written like the Quran. It is mostly written by men who bear witness to what they saw and experienced. If 10 people witness an accident and report it, not all the stories will line up exactly, because they may have seen it from different angles and they may have understood it differently than each other. This doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is a strength and not a doubt. If all their stories lined up perfectly, I would think this was couched.
    I disagree with you here.
    The word of God must be error free so that we can believe that it's from God.
    If the Bible is just people reporting what they witnessed and these witnesses are contradictory, I won't be able to believe it's the word of God.
    I agree with you that if people are reporting the same incident, they will report it in different ways. This means that the event they reported has happened, but it also means that there may be some errors in the details of what they are witnessing and the word of God must be error free.

    Let's see some of the contradictions in the Bible.

    II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?
    I CHRONICLES 21
    SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

    Another contradiction


    2 Kings 24 verse 8 (KJV) says: "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months."
    2 Chronicles 36 verse 9 (KJV) says: "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD."

    Christians admit the presence of such errors

    Pg 46 of "So the Bible is full of Contradictions? 101 Seeming Contradictions with Possible solutions" author Carl G. Johnson says that:
    "These and others could be given to show that, in spite of the carefulness of the scribes, copyists' errors were not in the autographs [original manuscripts] but in the copies, and none of them affects the doctrinal contents of the Bible. Keil comments: "In the course of repeated copying many small errors crept into the text... The copyists have committed these errors by seeing or hearing wrongly, by faithlessness of memory, and by other misunderstandings; yet not arbitrarily or intentionally. And by none of them have the essential contents of scripture been in danger' (Introduction to Old Testament, II, pp. 294-295)


    Your scholars are just admitting the presence of errors in the Bible. It's not an error free book, how can I believe that it is from A to Z the word of God?
    The christian scholars are just claiming that the errors of the scripts don't affect the doctorinal contents of the Bible, what about 1John 5:7 which is the only phrase that frankly speaks about trinity?


    Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 25-05-2014 at 12:27 AM.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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Trinity and development of doctorine

Trinity and development of doctorine