A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar

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A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar

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Thread: A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar

  1. #1
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    Default A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    This is a nice debate between me and our guest bahiraomar; rooted in evidence and based on logic.
    Hoping that she will find her long desired objective.

    Welcome, bahiraomar to this mild debate

    We have some conditions we should follow to the end of the debate:
    1- Mutual respect to our religions and prophets.
    2-Only one issue will be discussed and we will not skip it till we finish it completely, so don't start a differen topic till we finish the current one.
    3- Each issue you mention must be included with its proof.
    4- Putting in mind that the aim of the debate is to show the reality , so we must be honest with ourselves and respect the readers' minds

    We are waiting for you to explain
    What were the reasons beyond the crucifixion?

    Best regards
    .....
    Last edited by Authentic Man; 25-04-2011 at 03:15 AM.
    من هنا نبدأ ... وفي الجنة نلتقي
    إن شاء الله

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authentic Man View Post
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    This is a nice debate between me and our guest bahiraomar; rooted in evidence and based on logic.
    Hoping that he will find his long desired objective.

    Welcome, bahiraomar to this mild debate

    We have some conditions we should follow to the end of the debate:
    1- Mutual respect to our religions and prophets.
    2-Only one issue will be discussed and we will not skip it till we finish it completely, so don't start a differen topic till we finish the current one.
    3- Each issue you mention must be included with its proof.
    4- Putting in mind that the aim of the debate is to show the reality , so we must be honest with ourselves and respect the readers' minds

    We are waiting for you to explain
    What were the reasons beyond the crucifixion?

    Best regards
    .....
    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
    Thank you that you opened a new thread for me. I want to tell you that I am glad to talk to you because I like many things which you said about the Trinity. I would like to discuss them too. Please do not be angry at me and do not consider that I disrespect your choice to believe in another god. I respect it and even my God called the God of Israel also respects your choice. But He is trying to warn us about our sins and it is a confrontation. If we say what God says it means that we confront you too on behalf of our God. In this confrontation you can think that we disrespect you or hate your beliefs but in fact we LOVE you and we hate your sins trying to WARN you about them. So, please do not be offended by my words which I will say but if I will say any thing what you consider as an insult then just let me know and I will apologize. But KNOWING that the TRUTH is ONE we all should KNOW this TRUTH. How can we know this Truth? By studying the Holy Scripture.
    So, we KNOW that God is ONE- Allahu Wahid. And name of this God is God of Israel according to the Scriptures which existed before foundation of Islam. These Scriptures are called Taurat/Torah and the Tanakh. And the name of God who is described there is GOD OF ISRAEL.
    This God sent His Son to live among us and be killed instead of humankind. You asked WHY? The Scripture says (Isaiah 53, the Old Testament) to accept our sin and make us FREE of our sins. He should atone our sins. Why was this requited? Because all laws of God could NOT make people perfect by stating the rules and regulations. But people SHOULD be perfect to live in the presence of God in paradise/the Kingdom of Heaven. Just imagine that we all drive with high speed and laws cannt make us obedient to them. If we violate one of the laws, the Scripture says that we are guilty in violation of ALL laws. It means we all are sinners. By committing one sin we all are sinners. So, if we all are sinners/ criminals then WHY did God need criminals to inhabit by us His Kingdom of Heaven? Is He a Criminal to dwell with criminals? No. He is HOLY and He needs HOLY people! He knew that He needed to change us. To forgive our crimes and to make us holy. But how to make HOLY a criminal who killed your daughter? By TURNING his heart to God and causing him to REPENT ABANDINING his crimes. It means that God needs our repentance. But even repentance of this criminal cannt set him FREE from the prison! Because the law testifies against him. According to this law he should be punished/killed and may be sentenced to death. So, just imagine this killer in a prison and One Man comes there and sets him free! He paid the price for him! He redeemed him! That’ s why He should not spend his life in the prison or be beheaded in Saudi Arabia! You can say that there is no need for this Man Jesus/’Isa come to the prison and redeem us. Yes, if God would not love you He would not do it. If you would not be precious for God, He would not redeem you. But according to the Holy Scripture, God is LOVE! It is His nature. His essence! You could say: may be there was another way to get him from judgment…to avoid the judgment. The law of God is PUNISHMENT for sin is DEATH. It means, according to the justice of God, every sinner should die. It means that in this case God cannt disown Himself. He should PUNISH us by KILLING. But if someone would take our guilt and be found guilty then this Man should be punished instead of us. Jesus took our guilt and crimes and He was killed instead of us. And God the Father allowed Him to die instead of us. Do you remember that He was HOLY according to al Quran and the Bible? So, if the holy Man accepted sins of the world then we are free of all our sins! He redeemed us from the future wrath of God during the judgment by being punished instead of us. He paid the required amount to get us from prison/hell. And He put to our spiritual bank account a huge amount- His HOLINESS/RIGHTEOUSNESS. That’s why we who are forgiven by Him are holy like our God is HOLY. What do you think brother?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authentic Man View Post
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    This is a nice debate between me and our guest bahiraomar; rooted in evidence and based on logic.
    Hoping that he will find his long desired objective.

    Welcome, bahiraomar to this mild debate

    We have some conditions we should follow to the end of the debate:
    1- Mutual respect to our religions and prophets.
    2-Only one issue will be discussed and we will not skip it till we finish it completely, so don't start a differen topic till we finish the current one.
    3- Each issue you mention must be included with its proof.
    4- Putting in mind that the aim of the debate is to show the reality , so we must be honest with ourselves and respect the readers' minds

    We are waiting for you to explain
    What were the reasons beyond the crucifixion?

    Best regards
    .....

    Brother, I told Muhammad that I am a lady. And I made a mistake in registration form that's why you can see that I am a man. But it doesn’t matter for me how you would call me man or woman. Yes. My ethnicity is Jew but I am a Christian. I believe in God Jesus. About Al Azhar and Mufti is true.

  4. #4
    Authentic Man's Avatar
    Authentic Man is offline مشرف المنتدى الانجليزي
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    Thank you that you opened a new thread for me.
    Welcome our decent guest to your thread, hoping that we complete it in a fruitful way...

    Quote
    I want to tell you that I am glad to talk to you because I like many things which you said about the Trinity. I would like to discuss them too.
    I am glad to discuss whatever comes to your mind, but in its time.


    Quote
    Please do not be angry at me and do not consider that I disrespect your choice to believe in another god. I respect it and even my God called the God of Israel also respects your choice. But He is trying to warn us about our sins and it is a confrontation. If we say what God says it means that we confront you too on behalf of our God. In this confrontation you can think that we disrespect you or hate your beliefs but in fact we LOVE you and we hate your sins trying to WARN you about them. So, please do not be offended by my words which I will say but if I will say any thing what you consider as an insult then just let me know and I will apologize.
    Please don't let me remind you if your words include undesired words. So please reread your post making sure that it has no demanding words or ideas ...
    The issue of having another God will be discussed later, inshaallah.



    Quote
    This God sent His Son to live among us and be killed instead of humankind. You asked WHY? The Scripture says (Isaiah 53, the Old Testament) to accept our sin and make us FREE of our sins.
    First, Which sin was it ?

    Second, was it mentioned that God sent his son to be killed instead of others in Isaiah 53?!!!
    Mention the verse and the number of chapter and verse please!!


    Quote
    He should atone our sins. Why was this requited? Because all laws of God could NOT make people perfect by stating the rules and regulations. But people SHOULD be perfect to live in the presence of God in paradise/the Kingdom of Heaven.
    I completely agree with you that all people in the pradise will be perfect

    ..................................................

    But let me ask you some questions about sending him to set us free:

    1- Did Jesus accept to be crucified or not with proof, please?

    2- Was Jesus crucified for the sake of all humans since Adam, or for people after him only?

    3-Are all prophets and the believers who followed them in the hell or the paradise?


    Quote
    This God sent His Son to live among us and be killed instead of humankind
    .
    This is against God's words
    Eze 18 4 the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    so, no one can be punished for others' sins !!!

    M't 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
    Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

    Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

    M't 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

    De 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    M't 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.


    M't 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    M'r 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

    Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Of what the verses above God set the complete fair punishment for criminals , and there is no inherited sin or one shall be punished of another !!
    In addition, there are different ways to forgive sinners away from killing an innocent Man, for example, asking for forgiveness, repenting , praying, fasting ...etc. And if they do nor repent, they will perish

    Finally, the verses mentioned, that Jesus came for mercy, not sacrifice !!

    Do you doubt that God is fair?
    For sure not. So, how can you accept the idea of killing His son for sinners?!!!!

    If you assumed that He forgave all humans' sins because He is merciful - without killing His son - , I would accept it!!!. but killing his son for others can't be accepted!!

    The examples you mentioned have nothing to do with Jesus's one!!
    To have an equivalent one, it could be like this:

    A wise man was robbed, later that wise man wanted to forgive the robber, so he sent his own son to the robber to kill him!!
    Is that a wise man?!!!

    If he forgave him without blood, we would admit his honor, but after killing His son, we doubt his sanity !!!



    Quote
    He is HOLY and He needs HOLY people!
    He needed holy people and a cursed son?!!!

    Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

    God is curse!!!

    So, the result is Holy people + Cursed God !!!

    Quote
    But how to make HOLY a criminal who killed your daughter? By TURNING his heart to God and causing him to REPENT ABANDINING his crimes
    .

    Do you really mean it?!!!
    A criminal who killed my daughter and succeeded in escaping will be holy and will be dealt like a good person?!
    What if that killer who got no punishment didn't repent?!!!
    His sins and crimes will be atoned?!!!

    Is it an invitation to do whatever you like even murder, rape, , children abuse..etc. because all sins are forgiven in advance?!!!
    And I guess, priests in Vatican apply that in churches, they rape women have forbidden sexual relations, and abuse children and don't need to care, their sins are forgiven!!!
    That was for priests, so what normal people can do?!!!

    Quote
    The law of God is PUNISHMENT for sin is DEATH. It means, according to the justice of God, every sinner should die
    .
    I mentioned before repenting, fasting, praying ...etc are enough for forgiveness according to Jesus' words...

    Quote
    It means that in this case God cannt disown Himself. He should PUNISH us by KILLING
    Why should he kill? Not to disown Himself ....
    You, inadvertently, described God as ignorant!!!
    He had not been aware of what would be done , so he put himself in a trap and He had no solution except killing himself, or His son !!!!
    God can't be ignorant to say something, then he discovers he should not have said it !!!

    Moreover, The verses I mentioned asked people to repent, so forgiving sinners who repent is what he said , i.e, He doesn't disown Himself at all !!!

    Quote
    Do you remember that He was HOLY according to al Quran and the Bible?
    He was honored in the Holy Quran as all prophets, but he was cursed in the Bible !

    Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

    Quote
    we are free of all our sins! He redeemed us from the future wrath of God during the judgment by being punished instead of us.
    Aquestion must be asked here:
    Is an obedient = a disobedient in judgement?!!!
    Don't forget, Jesus forgave them in advance!

    Waiting for your answers
    Best regards
    Last edited by Authentic Man; 25-04-2011 at 03:13 AM.
    من هنا نبدأ ... وفي الجنة نلتقي
    إن شاء الله

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  5. #5
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    Welcome our decent guest to your thread, hoping that we complete it in a fruitful way...
    - Thank you brother.


    I am glad to discuss whatever comes to your mind, but in its time.- Thank you brother and I especially want to talk to you about the Trinity concept in Christianity. If you want you can contact me here anytime: ############@hotmail.com.



    First, Which sin was it ?

    Second, was it mentioned that God sent his son to be killed instead of others in Isaiah 53?!!!
    Mention the verse and the number of chapter and verse please!!- What does Scripture mean when it says, "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?"
    John 3:16 teaches: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    John the Baptist's was speaking about the One who is to come, the Messiah/Isa Al Massih. He recognized that Jesus is this Messiah and he called Him "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

    -The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).

    On the cross, Jesus bore the punishment of sin. At His death, He cried out, “It is finished” (John 19:30b). Jesus finished paying the punishment for sin, as the perfect Lamb of God.
    The question is did Jesus took to His HOLY Body all sins for every one sinner? The Scripture says NO. Re-read Isaiah 53 and you will see that ONLY the Small Remnant is saved! Do Arabs belong to this remnant? Or in other words a limited number of people who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? Yes, if they are Christian Arabs and believe that Jesus is God. Why? Because God is Omniscient and He knows the end from the beginning. He knew from the beginning the number of people who finally will believe in God Jesus. Thus, you could be among them. But it is your choice and God is not going to violate your free will. No matter when today of tomorrow or before your death you can confess Jesus as Your Allah and then you can immediately belong to this small remnant. Just an illustration: Jesus came to you to prison and paid money to get you out of there. He gave you also a huge amount of money which is put to your bank account. You can get this amount ONLY if you will prove that it is YOU whose name is written in the Book of Life (in the bank database system). If your name is written in the Book of Life then you can get your money. It means that Jesus died for all Arabs, Jews, Muslims and unbelievers. But only those whose names will be written in the Book of Life could get to the Kingdom of Heaven and be God’s Inheritance. It means only their sins were forgiven. Only they got salvation and forgiveness through their Faith in God Jesus who died on the cross for them. It is Christianity. So, God forgave the sin of the world (giving forgiveness to every one who wants it) but only a limited number of people came to ‘bank’ to claim their money. Thus, only they will use this huge amount.

    ..................................................

    But let me ask you some questions about sending him to set us free:

    1- Did Jesus accept to be crucified or not with proof, please?- Jesus said many times before His death that He should die soon (He should be killed and He even said that they will destroy this Temple-His Body and He was going to restore it in three days). Disciples could not comprehend it. But after His death and resurrection they recalled all His words. Look:

    32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again. Mark 10:32-34
    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19

    2- Was Jesus crucified for the sake of all humans since Adam, or for people after him only? – Only for people who lived during the life of Jesus and after His death. But after His death He went to the hell and we believe that He set some people free from hell who wanted to believe in Him. All people- Jews- who lived before Jesus were judged by God according to the laws of God (Jewish al Shariah). I.e. according to the 10 Holy Commandments. One man who was crucified next to Jesus believed that He was the King of Israel/ Messiah and Jesus promised him paradise. So, after crucifixion of Jesus the price was paid for every Muslim and Arab and Jew and gentile. But to get this salvation paid for every one you need to belie in Him that He is the Son of God.

    3-Are all prophets and the believers who followed them in the hell or the paradise?- No. Even millions of people who called themselves as Christians are now in hell. We can get to the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY if our names our written in the Book of Life by angels. It happens ONLY when we are born of God/from God/ born from above. This is the central concept in Christianity when we born by God for a new life with Him. To be born of God we need to BELIEVE that Jesus is God, REPENT of all our sins, CONFESS them to God in salat/prayer and ABANDON these sins. If you repent of your sins and say that Jesus is God but at the same time if you kill Arabs or sleep with women then you are unbeliever. You are not Christian at all and you will be in hell even if you called yourself ‘christian’. In this case you are unbeliever in the eyes of God. So, not all people are able to get to paradise….it is difficult but God is able to help us. I can illustrate it too: you are flying in aircraft to Saudi Arabia (the Kingdom of Heaven) but you follow the instruction and your navigation system (the Holy Spirit/the words of God in the Bible). At the moment when you control your aircraft as you wish and not according to the main rules (when you are sinning or living in sins) then you aircraft will be crashed facing the mountains which you could not see because of the law visibility. So, in the aircraft you are safe and heading for the Kingdom of God ONLY if you obey God and lives as He says. If you live as you want then you will crash soon. So, who is saved? Only THOSE who landed safely in the Kingdom of Heaven! So, you need to be safe and saved! Not all are able to land safe at the destination- the Kingdom of Heaven.



    This God sent His Son to live among us and be killed instead of humankind


    This is against God's words
    Eze 18 4 the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    - Brother, yes we are saved by the death of Jesus. It was atonement. Do you know that before Islam Jews were commanded by God to offer Him animal sacrifices to get forgiveness of sins (and not only animals). So, you all during hajj commemorate the offering of the son of our father Ibrahim to God. But God stopped Ibrahim at the last moment before he cut throat of his son and gave Ibrahim a ram for offering instead of his son. So, it is a symbol even in Islam that the Lamb of God is offered by God instead of us. God tested Ibrahim and asked from him the best and the most precious- his son. Ibrahim was ready to kill his son (he actually killed him already in his heart). But knowing the love of Ibrahim toward God, God also gave us His Son Jesus to forgive and bear all our sins instead of us. So, the atonement and celebration of the Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur are the main concepts established by God before Islam. Let me tell you more on this subject:
    By choosing Heaven We choose God’s dwelling place! We choose God who is living there! We choose to enter the dwelling place of God - the Holy of Holies! Let me tell you what was the place called the Holy of Holies on earth:
    Brothers, do you remember an orthodox Jew on the picture sent to you before? He came to the Wailing Wall located in Jerusalem to find God's presence there and to ask God to listen to his prayers. Is it bad? No. He touches this wall and kisses it because he thinks that this wall is holy.
    Earlier in this Jewish Temple was a holy place were Jews placed the Ark of the Covenant. What is this? That is a chest, described in Books of Kings/Taurat as solely containing the Tablets of Stone on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed by God. According to the Book of Exodus/Taurat, the Ark was built at the command of God, in accordance with the instructions given to Moses on Mount Sinai. God was said to have communicated with Moses "from between the two cherubim" on the Ark's cover. After its creation by Moses, the Ark was carried by the Israelites during their 40-years of wandering in the desert. During the construction of Solomon's Temple, a special inner room, named Kodesh Hakodashim (Eng. Holy of Holies), was prepared to receive and house the Ark (1 Kings 6:19); and when the Temple was dedicated, the Ark—containing the original tablets of the Ten Commandments—was placed therein (1 Kings 8:6-9). Every one who touched this Ark, immediately died. Because it was a holy place of God. His presence was there. And only priests could carry this Ark with due respect. There is no Ark now and no Jewish Tempel…There is only one wall. And orthodox Jews think that if God's presence was in this Temple then even outer wall (the Wailing Wall) can keep some of His presence until today. The high priest of Israel entered the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle / Temple with a rope tied to his foot and/or with bells around his waist. If the High Priest's sins were not atoned for properly, he would die in the presence of the shekinah—the Glory of God—that filled the Holy of Holies. He would die because God is HOLY and He can allow to approach Him only FORGIVEN people! Since nobody else could enter that part of the Jewish Temple without also dying, the priests felt they needed a way to retrieve the body of the High Priest, if necessary. The bells jingling would be the sign that the priest had fallen to the ground dead. This is a powerful reminder of God's holiness and how we should approach Him.
    God Jesus gave us the direct access to God's throne!
    When Jesus died on the cross then a veil separated the Holy of Holies—the earthly dwelling place of God’s presence at the Temple-was torn in two!
    Why?
    A veil separated the Holy of Holies from people- sinners!
    Man was separated from God by sin. Only the High Priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year to enter into God's presence for all of Israel’s sake and make atonement for their sins. But now there is NO VAIL separating the Holy God and us sinners.
    “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:50-51a).
    There is no Temple anymore to offer God animal sacrifices.
    But God offered us His Lamb- His Son- to die instead of us and to enable us FREELY to enter the Holy of Holies- His dwelling place.





    He is HOLY and He needs HOLY people!


    He needed holy people and a cursed son?!!!- Yes, right. Jesus was cursed instead of us on the cross. Do you remember a story in the Taurat/Torah when angels came to Lot to save him and the wicked people wanted to rape Lot because of these angels? The biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah is recorded in Genesis chapters 18-19. Genesis chapter 18 records the Lord and two angels coming to speak with Abraham/Ibrahim. The Lord informed Abraham that "the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous." Verses 22-33 record Abraham pleading with the Lord to have mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham's nephew, Lot, and his family lived in Sodom. Lot wanted to protect these angels/ambassadors of God/ and he was ready to give his daughters to these sexual immoral people of Sodom and Gomorrah to rape them instead of angels. Can you give your daughter to rape instead of your friend? No.
    Look: “Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).

    But this righteous man Lot was acting according to other laws! The laws of LOVE for people and God! These wicked people said that they were going to rape Lot and angels too. Did it happen? No. Angels blinded people. These two angels had visited Lot in Sodom in an effort to get him to leave the city since it was about to be destroyed. So, if righteous men are able to kill their son for the sake of God (like Ibrahim did it) and they love people by being ready to suffer instead of others seeing their daughters raped, then how much our God is ready to suffer for your sake because His nature is LOVE!!!!!
    Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree


    God is curse!!!- Yes, Jesus was cursed instead of us!!!!! He was insulted, beaten to death and spat into His face. He-the Creator of the universe did NOT insult in return, did not curse and did not protect Himself! He willingly came to die knowing that it was the only way to save you!

    So, the result is Holy people + Cursed God !!!- Right! His righteousness and holiness is imputed to us. By His wounds we are healed and forgiven. That’s why no cursed could harm us! If you would curse us and desire to kill us by the power of curses, you can be sure that no one of these curses will act against us! Jesus made us FREE of any curse.


    But how to make HOLY a criminal who killed your daughter? By TURNING his heart to God and causing him to REPENT ABANDINING his crimes

    - Brother, my friend killed two people and he cannt even go to masjid anymore because he knows that allah did not forgave these sins according to Islam….But this Muslim can be FREE of his sins immediately if he would confess his sins and Faith in God Jesus. Immediately his name would be written in the Book of Life after he would finish his prayer! At this moment ALL his sin could be forgiven and forgotten by God. He could be called the Inheritance of God and he could be sure that he is granted by god the Kingdom of Heaven. So, you can see that only Christian God promises such things to people. moreover He adopted us to be called His sons and that’s why we have power of god to cast out demons from people and heal them by the power of God.

    Do you really mean it?!!!
    A criminal who killed my daughter and succeeded in escaping will be holy and will be dealt like a good person?!- Brother, the Kingdom of Heaven is for ex-killers, for sinners! Because if you hate your brothers, it means you are a killer! The Scripture says it. So, we all killers will inhabit the Kingdom of God if we will REPENT and TRANSFORM our life through our FAITH in God Jesus.
    What if that killer who got no punishment didn't repent?!!!
    His sins and crimes will be atoned?!!!- God forgives killers! If he didn’t repent and lives in sins killing other people, 1000% he will be in hell! It is impossible to deceive God!

    Is it an invitation to do whatever you like even murder, rape, , children abuse..etc. because all sins are forgiven in advance?!!!- Did you read my message called ‘the Double layer of God’s protection’? Yes, we are forgiven of all our sins. But 100% if I am forgiven and live in sins, sleeping with men in Cairo, I will be in hell! Why? Because if we are forgiven (safe in our aircraft), we can crash any moment. Only we are saved if we live with God as He said, if we WALK with God, OBEY God and conform our lives to His words. You are given a huge amount of money at your bank account, but if you will not claim this amount and will not go to get it, then you will NEVER posses it!
    And I guess, priests in Vatican apply that in churches, they rape women have forbidden sexual relations, and abuse children and don't need to care, their sins are forgiven!!!
    That was for priests, so what normal people can do?!!! – Yes, the Catholic church is a man-made organization. The Church of God is UMMAH/ or global Fellowship of all believers in God Jesus! Our Ummah/Church prays God in masjid in Muslim countries but they offer their prayers to God Jesus! They say during prayers ‘Isa Allahu Akbar! This Church of God established by god Himself and they are saved people of God whose names are written in the Book of Life. Knowing how to be saved by God, we know for sure that people in Vatican who live as they want will NEVER land safely in the Kingdom of Heaven. They are crashed faced with sins. They are killed by their sins and they are spiritually dead already today.


    The law of God is PUNISHMENT for sin is DEATH. It means, according to the justice of God, every sinner should die

    .
    I mentioned before repenting, fasting, praying ...etc are enough for forgiveness according to Jesus' words...- Our Injil/the Gospels are like Ahadith. It is a part of our Holy Scripture/Taurat/the Bible. So, according to the words written there to get salvation is VERY simple through FAITH in God Jesus. Let’s read it:
    John 3: 16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
    We fast to come closer to God in our prayers to ask Him to help us. But fasting does not save us. We pray and even our prayers could not lift up higher than our ceiling because if we live in our sins, then God abandons us. He says that we should return to Him that He would return to us! How to return to Him? Through FAITH in Repentance.



    It means that in this case God cannt disown Himself. He should PUNISH us by KILLING

    Why should he kill? Not to disown Himself ....
    You, inadvertently, described God as ignorant!!!
    He had not been aware of what would be done , so he put himself in a trap and He had no solution except killing himself, or His son !!!!
    God can't be ignorant to say something, then he discovers he should not have said it !!!- Brother, our God is HOLY! He is against any crimes/sins. That’s why His nature says that punishment for sin is DEATH. We cannt dwell in the holy presence of God until we are cleansed of all our sins and blood of our sins from our hands. That’s why you do wudu before you go to pray allah. If He said that punishment for sin is DEATH then can He abrogate His words? NEVER! In Islam it is possible as we see. But Christian God cannt disown Himself – He said it!!!!! Not we! If according to His al Shariah (before Islam) in Israel people killed many sinners, then who should die if His Son Jesus deliberately takes the sin of the world? His Son. God said that without the shedding the blood there is no forgiveness. That’s why Jews should offer to God animal sacrifices to get His forgiveness. The soul that sins should die- God said. But Jesus took away all sin of the world. Jesus knew that He should die. He spoke about it many times. Is it cruel and senseless but God was not the Master of the ceremonies. He did NOT kill His Son Jesus! Unbelievers did it! He just did not protect His Son! Even Jesus was able to protect Himself because He is the Creator of our planet! It was His to be crushed instead of us. His Father did not spare His Son but gave Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him (Isaiah 53). How could He be pleased? The Father was pleased by seeing the outcome, redemption, eternal plan of salvation in action and millions of the saved Arabs entering the Kingdom of Heaven because of the LOVE of Jesus and His sufferings instead us. According to Isaih 53, Jesus was the Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. He came to taste the death for every one. He died to show us LOVE of God for you. He died to absorb the wrath of God. Justice and LOVE have met together and Justice and Mercy have kissed each other. Jesus met the righteous demands of God.
    Mercy and truth have met together;
    Righteousness and peace have kissed.
    Psalm 85:10

    He became sin who knew no sin. He died to cancel the legal demands against us. God treated Jesus as He would live my sinful life. It was amazing transaction! It is not about our deserving. You will never be good enough. God is simply loving you and justifying and forgiving. He is taking residence in our heart. That’s why we call Him Ar-Rahman wa ar-Rahim!




    Do you remember that He was HOLY according to al Quran and the Bible?


    He was honored in the Holy Quran as all prophets, but he was cursed in the Bible!- Al Quran clearly said that Jesus is HOLY! The Bible said it many times too. He is the word of God in the Bible and Kalimat-Ullah in the Quran.



    we are free of all our sins! He redeemed us from the future wrath of God during the judgment by being punished instead of us.



    A question must be asked here:
    Is an obedient = a disobedient in judgment?!!!
    Don't forget, Jesus forgave them in advance!- I am a killer according to the Bible because I hated my brother. You are a killer because you killed a man who raped your daughter. You and I are killers. During the Judgment Day we will get rewards from God 9it will be a reward ceremony for us)- the crowns of righteousness. Why? Because Jesus was killed. We should be killed for our sins but He took our crimes. He became a Killer instead of us and God (who is JUSTICE) punished Him by DEATH according to His holy laws. Are you guilty now? No more. We all sinners are equal to each other. We are not better in any classification of crimes. No matter what is classification of our crimes, we are criminals and God opened His Kingdom for us. But to get there we need to make WUDU. Jesus should make it for us purifying us and cleansing our hands from blood of our sins. You even cannt enter in masjid without wudu. Then how are you going to approach the HOLY God?

    Waiting for your answers
    Best regards- I love talking to you. You’re one of the most intelligent people I have ever met. Blessings!
    Last edited by Authentic Man; 25-04-2011 at 02:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم





    Quote
    Thank you brother and I especially want to talk to you about the Trinity concept in Christianity. If you want you can contact me here anytime: ############@hotmail.com.
    For sure I'd love to discuss it and all topics u like on its time, but here in this forum , as when we finish the issue of crucifixion - inshaallah - it will be your time to ask about whatever you like in Islam or Christianity. So, there is no need to exchange e-mails .

    Quote
    John the Baptist's was speaking about the One who is to come, the Messiah/Isa Al Massih. He recognized that Jesus is this Messiah and he called Him "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
    -The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).
    Dear decent guest, was Jesus a lamb?!!!
    I can't accept this description, again I said He was Holy in the Holy Quran and we as Muslims can't accept such description !!!

    It was mentioned "the sin" with the definite article "the" and the singular form "sin" which refered to the original sin, but you explained it as "our sins" as you seem that you yourself don't accept the idea of the original sin and you believe that there was no inherited sin, and that is a great beginning ....



    Let's spotlight on "he was buried, that he was raised on the third day"

    Let's see if that happened according to the Bible:


    M't 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    M't 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Which meant Jesus would stay 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth as Jonas did in the whale!


    Jews didn't consider a day is 24 hours as we do, but at them a day starts from the sun rise to the sun set, while the night of the following day starts from the sun set to the sun rise , and for sure you know the night comes before the day. So the night of Sunday is Saturday at night at us.

    Let's calculate it starting from the moment Jesus was buried:
    He was buried at the night of ٍSaturday
    Lu 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
    Lu 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

    He Got out before the day of Sunday
    M't 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    Let's count how many days and nights

    The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
    The Night of Sunday + ????
    The Day of Saturday is missing

    2 nights & 1 day

    2 days + 1 night are missing !!!
    But
    Let's be more generous and calculate Sunday as Luke's Gosble
    M'r 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
    So We can Sunday could be included , so it could be as the following:


    The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
    The Night of Sunday + The day of Sunday

    2days & 2 nights

    1 day + 1 night are missing !!!

    Well, can be even more generous and think that jews used to count even a part or the Friday Day, so it could be like this:

    The day of Friday + The night of Saturday
    The Day of Saturday + The night of Sunday
    The Day of Sunday + ????

    The night of Monday is missing
    1 night is missing !!!

    So, the prophecy of Jesus didn't acheived!!!


    Moreover, Jesus wasn't buried in the Heart of the earth , he was buried in a stone of a mountain!!!

    ...................

    Who were the witnesses of the story of crucifixion?

    4 people who mentioned the story, Luke, Mark, Matthew, John

    Mark & Luke did not attend this event , they weren't of his students. What even worse they had never seen him at all.

    Matthew & John escaped during the event, as Mark said:
    M'r 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.

    So, Who were the witnesses of the story?!!!
    No one !!


    Such an issue if it offered to any civilized court, the testimony of these witnesses would be refused at once.!!!!

    .................

    Who was risen form the Tomb?
    The answer is a Devil or a liar


    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    M't 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    M't 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    M't:24:25: Behold, I have told you before.
    M't 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    No witnesses & Christ himself warned u to belive them& the prophecy was not fulfilled !!! So, do you still accept it?!!!


    .......................

    Was Jesus suitable for redemption?

    The answer is No !!!

    Because any sacrifice must be physically complete, and if it's not complete or deformed or there is any tiny missing part, it can't be suitable for sacrifice, let's have some examples of such thing:

    Le 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish


    Le 1:10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.

    Was Jesus physically complete to be suitable for sacrifice?
    The Answer is No !!!

    He was circumcised when he was 8 days, to the foreskin was missing !!!
    So he was not complete!!

    ....................

    Did God Accept human sacrifice:
    No !!!


    De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

    Le 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
    Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Human sacrifice is not accepted and capital punishment to whoever commit such a crime!!!

    As Paul said:
    1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    That is why i insist to finish this issue completely to realize it's vain!
    ---------------------------------------------

    Quote
    just an illustration: Jesus came to you to prison and paid money to get you out of there. He gave you also a huge amount of money which is put to your bank account. You can get this amount ONLY if you will prove that it is YOU whose name is written in the Book of Life (in the bank database system). If your name is written in the Book of Life then you can get your money. It means that Jesus died for all Arabs, Jews, Muslims and unbelievers. But only those whose names will be written in the Book of Life could get to the Kingdom of Heaven and be God’s Inheritance. It means only their sins were forgiven. Only they got salvation and forgiveness through their Faith in God Jesus who died on the cross for them. It is Christianity. So, God forgave the sin of the world (giving forgiveness to every one who wants it) but only a limited number of people came to ‘bank’ to claim their money. Thus, only they will use this huge amount.
    Sorry dear, your example has nothing to do with our topic !!!

    Jesus didn't pay money, he let himself to be insulted , hit and killed...
    Paying money gives you honor
    Paying your dignity gives you disgrace, which we can never accept to describe Christ with!

    generous people pay money with no condition, but Jesus paid money under a condition !!!

    We are not prisoners to be bailed out!!!

    Jesus had to pay money to prisoners- no way to release a prisoners except this - So, it's a proof of his weakness!!!

    In addition, Jesus was not for all humans, he was for the house of Israel
    M't 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    M't 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Let's see another relevant example:
    Some theives stole a bank, the judge needed to set them free, so he sentence himself to death!!!

    God needed to set humans free, so he killed himself!!!

    The question has not been answered till now, Why did he kill himselfto forgive them however there are many ways for forgiveness? !!!!
    Quote
    Did Jesus accept to be crucified or not with proof, please?- Jesus said many times before His death that He should die soon (He should be killed and He even said that they will destroy this Temple-His Body and He was going to restore it in three days)
    Where is the answer, dear?
    The answer I expect was one of two (Yes, he accepted it.) or ( No, He was forced to do it) is there any other expected anwers?!!!

    Let's discuss it:
    What did it mean if he was forced to do?
    1-He can't be a God at all, as there is someone forced him to do.
    2- The cliam of love is useless as he didn't do that because he loved you, but because he had to.
    3- It's an invitiation to search for that stronger god to worship him instead of Jesus

    What did it mean if he accepted to be crucified?

    1- He committed suiside,
    as he accepted to be killed, however, he was able to defend himself!

    2- Why did he try to escape, but they caught him
    Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Joh 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

    3- Why did he shout asking for help on the cross:
    M't 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    So, please think deeply and tell me which one you choose.

    ....................

    There is something we can never neglect in this point:
    Did Allah Die on the cross?
    You believe that Allah is Jesus, right?
    So, you believe that Allah died on the cross !!!

    De 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

    God Never die

    But Jesus died and buried !!!

    -----------------------------------------------

    Quote
    2- Was Jesus crucified for the sake of all humans since Adam, or for people after him only?
    – Only for people who lived during the life of Jesus and after His death.
    But after His death He went to the hell and we believe that He set some people free from hell who wanted to believe in Him. All people- Jews- who lived before Jesus were judged by God according to the laws of God (Jewish al Shariah). I.e. according to the 10 Holy Commandments
    .

    &

    Quote
    3-Are all prophets and the believers who followed them in the hell or the paradise?- No. Even millions of people who called themselves as Christians are now in hell. We can get to the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY if our names our written in the Book of Life by angels. It happens ONLY when we are born of God/from God/ born from above. This is the central concept in Christianity when we born by God for a new life with Him. To be born of God we need to BELIEVE that Jesus is God, REPENT of all our sins, CONFESS them to God in salat/prayer and ABANDON these sins.
    Where is your proof, dear guest?

    He was crucified for those lived during and after him, and who lived before him were judged according to laws, so, who followed the commands are in the paradise, and who neglected them are in the hell, right?

    Now, what is the role of crucifiction? !!!!


    Obedient worshippers are in the paradise
    Disobedients are in the hell

    There is no difference might be fulfilled by crucifixion!!!


    Exactly like all religions before Him, so, why did he crucify himself?!!!!

    Concerning going to hell to get those who believed in him,
    You mean He went to disobedients to realease them, they can't be obedient people as they are already in the paradise as you said
    I need you to think honestly, if there is a person in a fire, and whoever has the power to get him out of the fire and he said, " I am your God, if you believe in me, you will be in the paradise"
    Do you think there will be even one person refuses him to stay the hell , there is no doubt all of them would believe and accept whatever he says to release themselves, espcially after seeing what we can't see now in this world !!!!

    We all believe, this world is the world of test and after death, we gain the fruit of our thinking and there will be no choice given to anybody after death!!!

    -----------------------

    Quote
    I can illustrate it too: you are flying in aircraft to Saudi Arabia (the Kingdom of Heaven) but you follow the instruction and your navigation system (the Holy Spirit/the words of God in the Bible). At the moment when you control your aircraft as you wish and not according to the main rules (when you are sinning or living in sins) then you aircraft will be crashed facing the mountains which you could not see because of the law visibility. So, in the aircraft you are safe and heading for the Kingdom of God ONLY if you obey God and lives as He says. If you live as you want then you will crash soon. So, who is saved? Only THOSE who landed safely in the Kingdom of Heaven! So, you need to be safe and saved! Not all are able to land safe at the destination- the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Sorry dear it has nothing to do with crucifixion!!!

    I can apply it to any religion or even to a company system!
    Who follows his relogious teaching will reach his target safely,
    and who does not will be dismissed out!!!
    The issue is the role of crucifixion!!, please don't forget

    -------------------------------

    Quote
    it is a symbol even in Islam that the Lamb of God is offered by God instead of us. God tested Ibrahim and asked from him the best and the most precious- his son. Ibrahim was ready to kill his son (he actually killed him already in his heart). But knowing the love of Ibrahim toward God, God also gave us His Son Jesus to forgive and bear all our sins instead of us
    .

    Great difference between the two stories!

    Ibraham was a God's slave, not the God
    Allah tested him, but refused to let him kill his son!
    You said, "he actually killed him already in his heart"
    How did you know?!!!
    If you were him, would you kill your son in your heart?!!
    He did that upon his nose!!!
    That is why God rewarded him and sacrificed a lamb instead of his son!The test was not for Ibraham, it was for them all, him and his son, and both were prophets and both were His slaves, His Creatures!!

    This symbol contradicts the crucifixion, that Allah the most mercifull refused to let a man to kill his son, would you think Allah would do if he had a son?!!!

    What people can do and get or gained are different from Allah do. We are His creatures; For example, we go to toilet, bleed, do bad stuff...etc.
    Allah has attributes of perfection and pride ,shortage is impossible in his part; and killing his son ( as you believe ) - by the hand of his creatures - is an unforgivable crime

    -------------------------

    To be continued
    من هنا نبدأ ... وفي الجنة نلتقي
    إن شاء الله

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

  7. #7
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    Quote
    He needed holy people and a cursed son?!!!- Yes, right. Jesus was cursed instead of us on the cross. Do you remember a story in the Taurat/Torah when angels came to Lot to save him and the wicked people wanted to rape Lot because of these angels? The biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah is recorded in Genesis chapters 18-19. Genesis chapter 18 records the Lord and two angels coming to speak with Abraham/Ibrahim. The Lord informed Abraham that "the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous." Verses 22-33 record Abraham pleading with the Lord to have mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham's nephew, Lot, and his family lived in Sodom. Lot wanted to protect these angels/ambassadors of God/ and he was ready to give his daughters to these sexual immoral people of Sodom and Gomorrah to rape them instead of angels. Can you give your daughter to rape instead of your friend?
    I told you many times that Massih was glorified in the Holy Quran and by Muslims only !!!
    I can't accept such a word to my father, so how can I accept it to a Prophet?!!!

    There is fatal misunderstanding in the story you mentioned:

    the verse:
    11|78|And his people came unto him, running towards him and before then they used to commit abominations. He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?

    You misunderstand the meaning of " my daughters" the meaning of it is all women who followed him in village, not his biological daughters. Moreover, he didn't offer them to be raped, but to get married to them!!
    The verse said " purer " and rape can't be pure, can it?!!!
    So, the example you mentioned has nothing to do with the crucifixion!!!
    Sorry again !!
    ----------------------------

    Quote
    So, the result is Holy people + Cursed God !!!- Right! His righteousness and holiness is imputed to us. By His wounds we are healed and forgiven. That’s why no cursed could harm us! If you would curse us and desire to kill us by the power of curses, you can be sure that no one of these curses will act against us! Jesus made us FREE of any curse.
    I can't immagine it!!
    You describe him now with "holly" and "cursed" !!!
    you disown yourself?!!!

    Something else: do curses kill?!!!
    How can I harm or kill you by the power of curse?!!
    And is there a kind of punishment to this crime if i do?!

    What did he set you free from, if you don't worship, repent, and do good deeds, you will be in the hell?

    Please my dear guest, be more honest with yourself!
    ----------------------------------------

    Quote
    Brother, my friend killed two people and he cannt even go to masjid anymore because he knows that allah did not forgave these sins according to Islam
    Sorry dear, a fatal misunderstanding,again

    According to Islam all sins can be forgiven except assuming that He has a partener
    4|48|Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.

    25|68|And those who cry not unto any other god along with Allah, nor take the life which Allah hath forbidden save in (course of) justice, nor commit adultery and whoso doeth this shall pay the penalty; 25|69|The doom will be doubled for him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein disdained for ever; 25|70|Save him who repenteth and believeth and doth righteous work; as for such, Allah will change their evil deeds to good deeds. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

    According to Islam, if a killer repents and does good deeds, Allah will exchange this sin to be a good deed.
    However, he put very firm punishments to killers to save others' rights and lives.
    And in Islam we have what is called blood money given to the victim's family and aslave must be set free, or fasting 60 days

    4|92|It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

    So, your example is useless, my dear guest !!!

    --------------

    Quote
    Because if you hate your brothers, it means you are a killer! The Scripture says it.
    Howcome?!!
    Love and Hate are the heart actions, we can't control!!
    So, how can I be considered a killer for something, I am forced to?!!!
    but what we control is our morals and deeds, so we are ordered to watch our temper and control our deeds !!!
    Now it's fair, isn't it?!!!

    ------------


    The rest of your post, I answered inclusively above


    -----------

    Quote
    I love talking to you. You’re one of the most intelligent people I have ever met. Blessings
    Thank you, my dear guest for this nice compliment!
    However I don't use my intelligence, I only use evidence and logic.

    Waiting for your answer

    Best regards


    من هنا نبدأ ... وفي الجنة نلتقي
    إن شاء الله

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


    اقتباس

    Thank you brother and I especially want to talk to you about the Trinity concept in Christianity. If you want you can contact me here anytime: ############@hotmail.com.


    For sure I'd love to discuss it and all topics u like on its time, but here in this forum , as when we finish the issue of crucifixion - inshaallah - it will be your time to ask about whatever you like in Islam or Christianity. So, there is no need to exchange e-mails . – No, there is a need to exchange e-mails. Hahahaha. By the way have you read my letter in your yahoo account?



    اقتباس

    John the Baptist's was speaking about the One who is to come, the Messiah/Isa Al Massih. He recognized that Jesus is this Messiah and he called Him "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
    -The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).






    Dear decent guest, was Jesus a lamb?!!!
    I can't accept this description, again I said He was Holy in the Holy Quran and we as Muslims can't accept such description !!! – Brother, the other day I was talking to Muslims and I mentioned you. So, let me tell you why do we call Jesus the Lamb of God. But it will be a long description….I will try to make it brief:
    Brothers,
    Our respected brother Mohammad Madian said the other day:
    God Jesus is our Lamb slain for every one of us!
    Any one who believes in these words is a deaf and blind fool,
    What a poor god is that who is a lamb that gets slain for the sins of his creatures!!!!!!!! Where is your brains? Where is your common sense?
    This is too ridiculous, any one who have some dignity wouldn’t accept these words to be said about his father rather than to be said about his god.
    You are completely lost.

    Brothers, yes it is funny in some sense that we cannot call our father as the lamb. But we call our God Jesus the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. And we are proud of that fact. We are proud because the All-knowing God made a decision from the foundation of the world to give His Son to die on the cross instead of the humankind.
    Let’s consider today why Jesus was called the Lamb of God.
    And why we are proud that He is the Lamb who was slain for everyone of us?
    Why our fathers could not be called by this perfect name the Lamb of God?
    The title Lamb of God appears the first time in the Gospel of John, with the exclamation of John the Baptist: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" in John 1:29, the title reaffirmed the next day in John 1:36.
    John 3:16 teaches: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    John the Baptist's was speaking about the One who is to come, the Messiah/Isa Al Massih. He recognized that Jesus is this Messiah and he called Him "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
    The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).
    But what does it mean that Jesus is the Lamb of God?
    The word Lamb in Hebrew is kebhes, "a young ram"; compare Arabic kebsh, "ram".
    God said in Isaih 53:4 that a Man/Isa Al Massih "he has borne our griefs,". It means that according to the HOLY words of God, Isa Al Massih took away our sins like before through offerings Israelites were able to be free of their sins according to God’s command.
    Hebrews kebhes, a male lamb from the first to the third year were offered God daily at the morning and the evening sacrifice (Exodus 29:38-42), on the Sabbath day (Numbers 28:9), at the feast of the New Moon (28:11), of Trumpets (29:2), of Tabernacles (13-40), of Pentecost (Leviticus 23:18-20), and of the Passover (Exodus 12:5), and on many other occasions (1 Chronicles 29:21; 2 Chronicles 29:21; Leviticus 9:3; 14:10-25).
    Thus, the word Lamb/ram is the symbolical language of the Holy Scripture describing that the lamb is the type of meekness and innocence and it was the term used to describe God Jesus.
    . God said that without the shedding the blood there is no forgiveness. That’s why Jews should offer to God animal sacrifices to get His forgiveness. The soul that sins should die- God said. But Jesus took away all sin of the world. Jesus knew that He should die. He spoke about it many times. Is it cruel and senseless but God was not the Master of the ceremonies. He did NOT kill His Son Jesus! Unbelievers did it! He just did not protect His Son! Even Jesus was able to protect Himself because He is the Creator of our planet! It was His will and choice to be crushed instead of us. His Father did not spare His Son but gave Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him (Isaiah 53). How could He be pleased? The Father was pleased by seeing the outcome, redemption, eternal Plan of Salvation in action and millions of the saved Arabs entering the Kingdom of Heaven because of the LOVE of Jesus and His sufferings instead us. According to Isaiah 53, Jesus was the Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. He came to taste the death for every one. He died to show us LOVE of God for you. Remember that He died to absorb the wrath of God. Justice and LOVE have met together and Justice and Mercy have kissed each other. Jesus met the righteous demands of God.
    Mercy and truth have met together;
    Righteousness and peace have kissed.
    Psalm 85:10
    He became sin who knew no sin. That’s why we can enter free to the Kingdom of God. Is not about our deserving. You will never be good enough. God is simply loving you and justifying and forgiving. He is taking residence in our heart. That’s why we call Him Ar-Rahman wa ar-Rahim!
    So, when we call Jesus the Lamb of God, we refer to Him as the perfect and ultimate sacrifice for sin. In fact, the whole sacrificial system established by God in the Old Testament set the stage for the coming of Jesus Christ, who is the perfect sacrifice God would provide as atonement for the sins of His people. Jesus was “like a lamb led to the slaughter” (Jeremiah 11:19; Isaiah 53:7). That’s why He provided us redemption for the Small Remnant. You can be one of us through your FAITH in Him, REPENTANCE and confession of all your sins. Believe in God Jesus and abandon your sins and your name will be written in the Book of Life.
    Brothers, in Revelation 4-5 we can see the scene: the heavenly throne room. After receiving the command to write message of God to the seven churches, John, the disciple of Jesus, is “caught up in the spirit” to the throne room in heaven where he is to receive a series of visions that culminate in the ultimate victory of God Jesus at the end of the age. Revelation 4 shows us the endless praise that God receives from the angels and the 24 elders. Chapter 5 begins with John noticing that there is a scroll in the “right hand of Him/Jesus who was seated on the throne.” The scroll has writing on the inside and is sealed with seven seals. After giving us a description of the scroll, an angel proclaims with a loud voice “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” John begins to despair when no one comes forth to answer the angel’s challenge. One of the 24 elders points out that the Lion of the tribe of Judah has come to take and open the scroll. The Lion of the tribe of Judah is obviously a reference to Christ. The image of the lion is meant to convey kingship. Thus, Jesus is not only the slain Lamb but He is worthy to receive and open the scroll because He is the King of kings and hosts.
    The Holy Scripture reveals the justice of God in all its glory during the end times. We all will see
    God’s righteous judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth for their ultimate sin of rejecting Jesus. And we are promised that someday, when God Jesus will physically reigns on earth, God’s righteous justice will finally be on full display. Read it:
    Job 5:23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field, and the wild animals will be at peace with you.

    Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
    Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
    Ezekiel 34:25 "'I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety.
    Hosea 2:18 In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.
    What does it mean? The prophet describes the effect of Jesus’ reign in producing peace and tranquility on the earth. The two leading ideas are those of "peace" and "security." The figure is taken from the condition of animals of all descriptions living in a state of harmony, where those which are by nature defenseless, and which are usually made the prey of the strong, are suffered to live in security. By nature the wolf preys upon the lamb, and the leopard upon the kid, and the adder is venomous, and the bear, and the cow, and the lion, and the ox, cannot live together. But if a state of things should arise, where all this hostility would cease and a little child would be safe. The Holy Scripture describes the righteous reign of the Messiah on earth.
    God said: "And the wolf dwells with the lamb, and the leopard lies down with the kid; and calf and lion and stalled ox together: a little boy drives them. And cow and bear go to the pasture; their young ones lie down together: and the lion eats shopped straw like the ox. And the suckling plays by the hole of the adder, and the weaned child stretches its hand to the pupil of the basilisk-viper. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the land is filled with knowledge of Jehovah, like the waters covering the sea." Isaiah 11:6
    But how long will be the hostility ceased on earth? For 1,000 years.
    What happens then? Let me remind you what I said before:
    Soon people will witness the perfect reign of God Jesus for 1,000 years on our earth. But however some of them will refuse to believe in Him. He will stop wars and production of arms but they will still desire to destroy His Kingdom. He will not kill them but they will desire to kill Him like before. He will not attack them, but they will gather together again for a war against Him. There will be no weapon in Jerusalem to protect Jesus, His angels and saints. How He is going to defend Himself? He is God. The Almighty, Omnipresent and Omniscient God who created people and all visible and invisible worlds. Will He dwell among us if people do not want to see His presence? He will show them who He is and how righteously He reigns. He was described by the prophets in the Holy Bible and by reading His Holy words said there, we are able to look into His eyes even today. But even by looking at God, people would like to live without God!
    How He is going to exist with those who do not want to exist with Him?
    He is going to take those, who want to dwell with Him, to a NEW WORLD created by Him….So, it will be a final and great escape to another WORLD soon….Will you be among us? Or do you prefer to be left on our planet which will be destroyed?
    Summary: Brothers, when Jesus is referred to as the Lamb, you should remember that He is also the Lion. He is not only the Man. But Almighty God dwelling in the body. He is not only the sacrificial Lamb who took away the reproach of sin from His people but He is the conquering King who will slay the enemies of God by the WORDS of God at His return during the Judgment Day. He is against the war and He is God of Peace and Justice. But His Justice is going to devour His enemies who will be gathered together for the two coming Wars in Jerusalem raping Jewish women according to the prophecies. Will you share in His ultimate victory? Or are you going to see the flames of fire around you?


    It was mentioned "the sin" with the definite article "the" and the singular form "sin" which refered to the original sin, but you explained it as "our sins" as you seem that you yourself don't accept the idea of the original sin and you believe that there was no inherited sin, and that is a great beginning ....- Brother, we do not believe in the Original sin which could be inherited by all people. This concept was invented by the Catholic Church and not all Christians belong to this Church. Thus, we disagree with this concept too. Yes, we all are sinners because, according to the first crimes/sin of our father Adam and his wife, the sin entered the world and through sin DEATH. That’s why we all became commit sins. But we do not inherit sins. It is a madness. Even Jesus was holy according to the Scripture and He did not inherit any sins of His mother.

    Let's spotlight on "he was buried, that he was raised on the third day"

    Let's see if that happened according to the Bible:

    M't 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    M't 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Which meant Jesus would stay 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth as Jonas did in the whale!

    Jews didn't consider a day is 24 hours as we do, but at them a day starts from the sun rise to the sun set, while the night of the following day starts from the sun set to the sun rise , and for sure you know the night comes before the day. So the night of Sunday is Saturday at night at us.

    Let's calculate it starting from the moment Jesus was buried:
    He was buried at the night of ٍSaturday
    Lu 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
    Lu 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

    He Got out before the day of Sunday
    M't 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    Let's count how many days and nights

    The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
    The Night of Sunday + ????
    The Day of Saturday is missing

    2 nights & 1 day

    2 days + 1 night are missing !!!
    But
    Let's be more generous and calculate Sunday as Luke's Gosble
    M'r 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
    So We can Sunday could be included , so it could be as the following:


    The night of Saturday + The Day of Saturday
    The Night of Sunday + The day of Sunday

    2days & 2 nights

    1 day + 1 night are missing !!!

    Well, can be even more generous and think that jews used to count even a part or the Friday Day, so it could be like this:

    The day of Friday + The night of Saturday
    The Day of Saturday + The night of Sunday
    The Day of Sunday + ????

    The night of Monday is missing
    1 night is missing !!!

    So, the prophecy of Jesus didn't achieved!!!

    - Brother, let me answer to this question so:

    Wed night...Thursday day / night...Friday day / night...Saturday...day..." And the day and night where 1 day"...3 nights 3 days.. here is something I found that will explain for you what is taught in scriptures, if you have a Jewish Calender in the back of your Bible you will see it clearly.

    The Feast of the Passover (a high Sabbath) and the Feast of the Unleavened Bread (another high Sabbath) were celebrated on April 14th and 15th respectively. Sunset initiated the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Nisan 15 was a "high day", a non Saturday Sabbath.

    The first month of the Jewish year is the month of Nisan or "Aviv." The name "Aviv" comes from the Hebrew term "Chodesh Ha-Aviv" which means the "the month of Spring." Aviv was the name used for first month of the year before the Babylonian captivity. After the Babylonian captivity it was called "Nisan" or "Nisan".

    The day Jesus died was the preparation day (Wednesday) of the Passover celebration on Thursday (John 19:14, 31: "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (meaning Pilate) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" This was the morning of the crucifixion day. Verse 31 states, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

    Therefore, Passover (Nisan "Aviv" 14 ) was on Thursday, that year, the Feast of Unleavened Bread began on Friday (seven day feast last to Nisan "Aviv" 21), and the regular weekday Sabbath was on Saturday. Jesus was crucified in the morning on Wednesday and placed in the tomb before 6 P.M. He arose from the grave sometime after 6 P.M. on Saturday, which would be early Sunday morning, the first day of the week, according to Jewish time-keeping. Â This explanation fits Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 12:40 that He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    This is the only view that fits the biblical account is that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and buried before 6:00 PM that day. The Jewish day began at 6:00 PM which was the Passover (Nisan "Aviv" 14).

    Therefore the Passover began on Wednesday after 6:00 PM which would actually be Thursday in the Julian calendar.

    The women brought the spices on Friday, rested on Saturday and went on Sunday morning after 6:00 AM and found the Lord was resurrected. This is the series of events and is accord with Jesus' states of Matthew 12:38-40.Jesus was in the grave three full days and three nights. Any other view violates the biblical account and the historical facts.


    Moreover, Jesus wasn't buried in the Heart of the earth , he was buried in a stone of a mountain!!!- In the heart of the earth - The Jews used the word "heart" to denote the "interior" of a thing, or to speak of being in a thing. It means, here, to be in the grave or sepulchre. The expression "in the heart of the earth," suggested by the expression of Jonah with respect to the sea (2:3, in the Septuagint), means simply the grave, but this considered as the most emphatic expression of real and total entombment.
    ...................

    Who were the witnesses of the story of crucifixion?

    4 people who mentioned the story, Luke, Mark, Matthew, John

    Mark & Luke did not attend this event , they weren't of his students. What even worse they had never seen him at all.

    Matthew & John escaped during the event, as Mark said:
    M'r 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.

    So, Who were the witnesses of the story?!!!
    No one !!

    Such an issue if it offered to any civilized court, the testimony of these witnesses would be refused at once.!!!!- The Gospel descriptions of the crucifixion appear to be eyewitness accounts.
    Gospel of Matthew. According to this gospel, the various witnesses included Roman soldiers, Jewish officials, passersby who mocked Jesus, and two men crucified at the same time. The only reference to followers of Jesus is found in Matthew 27:55-56, which says that many women were "watching from a distance", and specifically names "Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons."
    Mark 15:40-41 also says that many women watched from a distance and specifically mentions "Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."
    In Luke 23:49, which says that some of them watched from a distance, but doesn't give any names.
    Note: If we try to list all the specific individuals mentioned in the various accounts, we get the following result:
    1. Mary Magdalene (mentioned by Matthew, Mark, and John)
    2. Mary the mother of James and Joses (mentioned by Matthew and Mark)
    3. The mother of Zebedee's sons (mentioned by Matthew)
    4. Salome (mentioned by Mark) -- Many scholars think that this is the same person as (3), the mother of Zebedee's sons
    5. Mary the mother of Jesus (mentioned by John)
    6. Mary the wife of Clophas (who was probably Joseph's brother) (mentioned by John)
    7. An un-named sister of Jesus' mother (mentioned by John) -- Many scholars think that this is the same person as (6), i.e., the wife of Clophas
    8. The un-named Beloved Disciple (mentioned by John)

    .................

    Who was risen form the Tomb?
    The answer is a Devil or a liar- A good question! But the Scripture which existed before foundation of Islam said that the Messiah should be killed instead of us and buried and accept our sins (read pls the Old Testament, Isaiah 53). Note: God said these words! Not a man! God said these words through a prophet called Isaiah and if we claim that God lied us in this chapter then we just boldly claim that our Allah is a Liar! So, if God clearly said that Isa Al Massih should be buried and killed then if we trust the words of another allah, then HOW we are going to get to the Kingdom of Heaven!!!?

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.- Yes, let me remind you about convulsions of Muhammad from which he suffered always when angel gave him revelations (Muhammad felt suffering, prrssing on the breast, sound and convulsions…).

    M't 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. M't 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    M't:24:25: Behold, I have told you before.
    M't 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    No witnesses & Christ himself warned u to believe them& the prophecy was not fulfilled !!! So, do you still accept it?!!!
    - Right. There will be many false Messiahs called the anti-christ. The word ‘ani’ could be translated as ‘instead of’. Jesus warned us that we should not believe in them or we will get to hell.

    .......................

    Was Jesus suitable for redemption?

    The answer is No !!!

    Because any sacrifice must be physically complete, and if it's not complete or deformed or there is any tiny missing part, it can't be suitable for sacrifice, let's have some examples of such thing:

    Le 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish


    Le 1:10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.

    Was Jesus physically complete to be suitable for sacrifice?
    The Answer is No !!!- Quran called Jesus HOLY. The Bible called Him HOLY. God Himself in Isaiah 53 (the Old Testament) said that He is RIGHTEOUS.

    He was circumcised when he was 8 days, to the foreskin was missing !!! So he was not complete!!- Why Jews should be circumcised? Let’s consider it today: But why God said to do circumcision? How did circumcision start in the Bible? According to Genesis, God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh. Those who were not circumcised were to be ‘cut off’ from their people (Genesis 17:10-14). Who was to be circumcised?
    Abraham, his descendants and those who were bought with their money (Genesis 17:12-13). Also, all the males of a household were to be circumcised if one of them wanted to join in the Passover celebrations (Exodus 12:43-49).
    The Passover means Passover from death of sin /slavery of sins to life with God…from sinful life to holy life with God….from slavery of sins to the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Thus, the circumcision is just a symbol used by God in the Bible to tell people that to be apart of God’s people/Israel/the saved Church-Ummah who will inherit the Holy Land/The Kingdom of Heaven we should GET RID of our sins which became part of our body though our SINS. So, Cut away your sins, get RID of them through BLOOD (symbol of Jesus’ blood shed on the cross) and YOU can be a part of the chosen people of God….Apart of the people chosen for salvation and FUTURE in the Promised Land/The kingdom of Heaven
    .
    ....................
    To be continued

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    Did God Accept human sacrifice:
    No !!!

    De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

    Le 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
    Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Human sacrifice is not accepted and capital punishment to whoever commit such a crime!!!- Right. I am happy that you know our Scripture. But AGAIN you should just memorize another Holy Scripture called Isaiah 53. God clearly said that Isa Al Massih will accept the sin of the world/of the Small Remnant. It means it was the will of God. It was a sacrifice not of a Man but of God Jesus. He was God. God accepted sufferings of God.

    As Paul said:
    1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    That is why i insist to finish this issue completely to realize it's vain!- Yes. I want to discuss with you all your questions which you have about our Christian Faith and I am afraid that when I will ask you questions about Islam then you could be disappointed. But to be fair and for your sake, you should allow me to attack your faith by questions. Then you will feel broken of course, but it will give you at least a chance to get a big picture why we say that Allah was NEVER in Islam and that He is Isa Allah.
    ---------------------------------------------

    اقتباس

    just an illustration: Jesus came to you to prison and paid money to get you out of there. He gave you also a huge amount of money which is put to your bank account. You can get this amount ONLY if you will prove that it is YOU whose name is written in the Book of Life (in the bank database system). If your name is written in the Book of Life then you can get your money. It means that Jesus died for all Arabs, Jews, Muslims and unbelievers. But only those whose names will be written in the Book of Life could get to the Kingdom of Heaven and be God’s Inheritance. It means only their sins were forgiven. Only they got salvation and forgiveness through their Faith in God Jesus who died on the cross for them. It is Christianity. So, God forgave the sin of the world (giving forgiveness to every one who wants it) but only a limited number of people came to ‘bank’ to claim their money. Thus, only they will use this huge amount.


    Sorry dear, your example has nothing to do with our topic !!!

    Jesus didn't pay money, he let himself to be insulted, hit and killed...
    Paying money gives you honor
    Paying your dignity gives you disgrace, which we can never accept to describe Christ with!

    generous people pay money with no condition, but Jesus paid money under a condition !!!

    We are not prisoners to be bailed out!!!- We all are prisoners of sins and God’s laws. According to these laws, we should be punished by death…we ALL…you and me. Because if we violated one oh His HOLY commandments it means we are guilty of the violation of all laws!!!

    Jesus had to pay money to prisoners- no way to release a prisoners except this - So, it's a proof of his weakness!!!- But all TRUE believers in God Jesus- Christians- possess the righteousness of Jesus Christ! Do you remember that He was HOLY! Why? Because “God made him/Jesus who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). So, it means we all have righteousness/holiness of Jesus because He gave us His righteousness though FAITH in Him. It was an amazing transaction: He took our sins and gave us His righteousness! Alhamdu lillah!

    In addition, Jesus was not for all humans, he was for the house of Israel – Right. He came to the people of Israel. Because this group of people our God chose among other nations and gave them revelations though prophet about His Nature LOVE. But the plan of God was to spread the faith in this God of Israel to other nations too to save them. There are verses in the Old Testament saying that during the reign of God Jesus during His Second Coming to Jerusalem many nations will come to Him to worship Him. Thus, salvation of Jesus was for all nations. But His first visit was for this ONE separated group of people called Israel. However Jesus healed a woman who didn’t belong to Israel! Look:
    In Matthew 7:6 Jesus calls unbelievers dogs and swine, and in Matthew 15:26 Jesus likens both the Canaanite woman and Gentiles to dogs.

    Jesus was using common Jewish metaphors to illustrate an unbeliever's or pagan's total depravity. The crowds would have understood that Jesus was obviously using metaphorical language, and was not literally calling someone a dog or swine. In regards to Jesus' statement in Matthew 15:26, Christ was trying to illustrate a key point to His disciples.

    According to first century Jewish thought both Gentiles and women were held in low esteem. Jews regarded themselves as the children of God, whereas Gentiles were nothing more than house pets. The Greek word used in this verse for dogs is kynarion, which properly translated means house pet or puppy. Jesus' use of this term implies that just as a house pet has a place in the home of His master, so too do the Gentiles have a place prepared for them in God's Kingdom. Christ was trying to move His Jewish disciples, who had tried earlier to get rid of the Canaanite woman, to envy by the woman's persistence and display of great faith, a faith exemplified by someone who to them was nothing more than a house pet.

    In similar fashion, Jesus had used a Roman Centurion's faith in contrast to the Israelites' lack of faith:

    "Now when Jesus heard this, he marveled, and said to those who were following, `Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you, that many shall come from East and West, and recline at the table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the Kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' " Matthew 8:5-12.

    The Jews considered Romans as enemies which God would destroy when Messiah would appear. And yet here was Israel's Messiah commending the faith of such a one.

    Hence, Jesus was using Gentiles as examples for Israel to emulate, not look down upon.


    M't 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    M't 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Let's see another relevant example:
    Some thieves stole a bank, the judge needed to set them free, so he sentence himself to death!!!

    God needed to set humans free, so he killed himself!!!- Yes. Let me illustrate it to you:
    Your son is ill and he is hospital. Only you can save him by giving him your kidney. If you will not give it to him then you know that there is no other man who could be donor. And after this operation you die. But your son is alive. It is the highest love when you sufferer everything…your life to save another person. It is the highest LOVE of a man to his child. If you will not push your child from approaching car and die instead of him in this accident then your LOVE to your child is NOTHING! Because it means that you love yourself more then anyone else. So, if you are able to suffer and die saving your child then LOOK HOW great and perfect is LOVE of your Father who gave His Son to die instead of you. This ‘car’ smashed Him to pieces and that’s why you will live forever and ever!

    The question has not been answered till now, Why did he kill himself to forgive them however there are many ways for forgiveness? !!!!- God is OMNISCIENT. It means He knows the end from the beginning. He knew that to show His HIGHEST LOVE toward you, He should suffer and die instead of you. God revealed Himself/His nature and essence- LOVE and Justice- in the life of death of His Son Ibn Allah. It was God’s perfect Plan of Salvation/ there is nothing better than that! There is no other better plan to reveal Himself to you and save you. His Justice and Mercy have kissed each other.


    اقتباس

    Did Jesus accept to be crucified or not with proof, please?- Jesus said many times before His death that He should die soon (He should be killed and He even said that they will destroy this Temple-His Body and He was going to restore it in three days)


    Where is the answer, dear?
    The answer I expect was one of two (Yes, he accepted it.) or ( No, He was forced to do it) is there any other expected answers?!!!- LOVE of God made Him to die instead of you! His LOVE made Him to suffer instead of you. His mercy made Him to descend from His Kingdom down to earth to suffer instead of you. He was forced by His LOVE to suffer instead of you.

    Let's discuss it:
    What did it mean if he was forced to do?
    1-He can't be a God at all, as there is someone forced him to do.- If LOVE force you to do some kind of things then how much GOD was moved and forced by His NATURE to suffer LONG to get you back to Him! The nature of our Jewish/christian God Jesus is LONGSUFFERING(according to the Scripture)!
    2- The claim of love is useless as he didn't do that because he loved you, but because he had to.- He explained His motives. He said that He LOVED the world- i.e. the human kind.
    Look:
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


    3- It's an invitation to search for that stronger god to worship him instead of Jesus

    What did it mean if he accepted to be crucified?

    1- He committed suicide,
    as he accepted to be killed, however, he was able to defend himself!- Brother, if you gave your kidney to save your son in a hospital, it does not make you a suicide (bomber) if you would die after this operation …lol…kidding.

    2- Why did he try to escape, but they caught him
    Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.- Because His mission was not finished yet and He escaped the tread. If we would do it too, it means we are reasonable…lol

    Joh 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

    3- Why did he shout asking for help on the cross:
    M't 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?- His Father left Him to die on the cross. His Father turned from Him because He bore the sin of the world on His body at that moment. The Holy God father turned from the Son who took not one crime of one man on His body on the cross but millions of crimes of millions of people…..He became sin. But a prayer is a communication to God and He was trying to talk/communicate with His Father. Of course Jesus knew the answer to this question but He was calling His LOVING Father to turn to His HOLY Son who became sin.

    So, please think deeply and tell me which one you choose.

    ....................

    There is something we can never neglect in this point:
    Did Allah Die on the cross?- God/Allah is immortal! ONLY the human body in which He dwelt was killed. It is impossible to kill God!
    You believe that Allah is Jesus, right?- Yes. He is Ibn Allah and equal to His Father. We say: Allahu Wahid. Hua Babba Allah wa Ibn Allah war Ruh al Qudus.
    So, you believe that Allah died on the cross!!!- His BODY died on the cross.

    De 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. – Yes, He is immortal and He is going to resurrect us to be immortal like He is. We are Immortal already who believes in Him. Already now He granted us the Kingdom of Heaven! Already now we are holy. Already now we use His power and cast out demons and heal illnesses like Jesus did it. Already now we are God’s inheritance and His ambassadors on this planet earth.

    God Never die

    But Jesus died and buried !!!- Body was killed and buried but Jesus said that He was going to resurrect/restore this Temple-His body- in three days and He did it and now we will be resurrected the same way and we will look like He is…Our bodies will be transformed upon the Rapture of the Church. And then we- the Church- will return to Jerusalem with Jesus and His mighty angels and Muslim troops gathered around Jerusalem and Jews will see that He who was resurrected was really the Mighty God….and light is coming out of His pierced hands as a witness that by these wounds/scars we are HEALED and granted the Freedom from death and hell.
    -----------------------------------------------

    اقتباس


    2- Was Jesus crucified for the sake of all humans since Adam, or for people after him only?
    Only for people who lived during the life of Jesus and after His death.
    But after His death He went to the hell and we believe that He set some people free from hell who wanted to believe in Him. All people- Jews- who lived before Jesus were judged by God according to the laws of God (Jewish al Shariah). I.e. according to the 10 Holy Commandments


    اقتباس

    3-Are all prophets and the believers who followed them in the hell or the paradise?- No. Even millions of people who called themselves as Christians are now in hell. We can get to the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY if our names our written in the Book of Life by angels. It happens ONLY when we are born of God/from God/ born from above. This is the central concept in Christianity when we born by God for a new life with Him. To be born of God we need to BELIEVE that Jesus is God, REPENT of all our sins, CONFESS them to God in salat/prayer and ABANDON these sins.


    Where is your proof, dear guest?

    He was crucified for those lived during and after him, and who lived before him were judged according to laws, so, who followed the commands are in the paradise, and who neglected them are in the hell, right?- It is the concept of Sheol. Look:
    Sheol- the ‘grave’, or ‘pit’ or ‘abyss’.
    In Judaism, it is a place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God".
    The word Hades (= underworld) was substituted for ‘Sheol’ when the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek. English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures have variously rendered the word Sheol as ‘Hell’or ‘the grave’. In the Hebrew Bible (Torah/Taurat), the word ‘Sheol’ occurs more than 60 times. It is used most frequently in the Psalms, wisdom literature and prophetic books. Those in Sheol awaited the resurrection for Judgment of God Jesus either in comfort (in the place called the bosom of Abraham- or in other words paradise) or in torment (or in other words in hell).
    Jesus who is God explained us what is the place the Bosom of Abraham and what is the place of torment. Let’s listen to Jesus now:
    Luke Chapter 16
    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
    “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
    But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
    neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


    Now, what is the role of crucifixion?!!!!

    Obedient worshippers are in the paradise
    Disobedient are in the hell- Unbelievers will be in hell who are NOT forgiven of their sins through their FAITH in God Jesus. Forgiven people will dwell with God in the New World created for them (re-read last 2 chapters of the Bible, Revelation).

    There is no difference might be fulfilled by crucifixion!!! – There is a difference we are forgiven and HOLY!!!!

    Exactly like all religions before Him, so, why did he crucify himself?!!!!- To show you His LOVE and forgive your crimes against Him and people and get you HOME!!!!

    Concerning going to hell to get those who believed in him,
    You mean He went to disobedient to release them, they can't be obedient people as they are already in the paradise as you said
    I need you to think honestly, if there is a person in a fire, and whoever has the power to get him out of the fire and he said, " I am your God, if you believe in me, you will be in the paradise"
    Do you think there will be even one person refuses him to stay the hell , there is no doubt all of them would believe and accept whatever he says to release themselves, especially after seeing what we can't see now in this world !!!!

    We all believe, this world is the world of test and after death, we gain the fruit of our thinking and there will be no choice given to anybody after death!!!- Sheol/Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment/ It is like a prison. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. There is also the lake of fire after the Judgment and it is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. So, Hades is a temporary place. The Sheol/Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
    8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far ... Ephesians 4:8-10
    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. 1 Peter 3:18-20
    .
    -----------------------

    اقتباس

    I can illustrate it too: you are flying in aircraft to Saudi Arabia (the Kingdom of Heaven) but you follow the instruction and your navigation system (the Holy Spirit/the words of God in the Bible). At the moment when you control your aircraft as you wish and not according to the main rules (when you are sinning or living in sins) then you aircraft will be crashed facing the mountains which you could not see because of the law visibility. So, in the aircraft you are safe and heading for the Kingdom of God ONLY if you obey God and lives as He says. If you live as you want then you will crash soon. So, who is saved? Only THOSE who landed safely in the Kingdom of Heaven! So, you need to be safe and saved! Not all are able to land safe at the destination- the Kingdom of Heaven.


    Sorry dear it has nothing to do with crucifixion!!!

    I can apply it to any religion or even to a company system!
    Who follows his religious teaching will reach his target safely, and who does not will be dismissed out!!!- Yes, you are right. I said that you are an intelligent man not in vain!!!! You know that even million of Christians cannt understand what you understood! They think that they will be in hell, but their lives testify against them and thus, they are sinners/criminals in the eyes of God until today. So, if even million of Christians will be in hell and will join millions of Christians who are in hell right now, how should we get to the Kingdom of Heaven? Though FAITH in God Jesus we will escape the Judgment Day and during this day we will get rewards. It will be a Reward Ceremony. But we need to live a godly life by WALKING with God in righteousness and holiness. Those ‘priests’ who sleep with men, as we see it in the Catholic Church, will be in hell because Holy God Jesus condemns them. He will judge them if they will not REPENT, abandoning their lovers, madness, crimes, sins…Thus, the purpose of God is YOUR SUBMISSION to Him and transformation or in other words you should be purified/refined during all days of your life like GOLD from its alloys and then you will be prepared to enter the prepared Place for the Prepared people (the Small Remnant)! Ahlan Wa Sahlan Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Idol worshippers, killers, shahyds, cow worshippers! But there is no cow to worship hat’s why GET RID of your cows and worship Kalimat-ullah who created the universe, you and all visible and invisible worlds.

    The issue is the role of crucifixion!!, please don't forget
    -------------------------------

    اقتباس

    it is a symbol even in Islam that the Lamb of God is offered by God instead of us. God tested Ibrahim and asked from him the best and the most precious- his son. Ibrahim was ready to kill his son (he actually killed him already in his heart). But knowing the love of Ibrahim toward God, God also gave us His Son Jesus to forgive and bear all our sins instead of us

    Great difference between the two stories!

    Ibraham was a God's slave, not the God
    Allah tested him, but refused to let him kill his son!
    You said, "he actually killed him already in his heart"
    How did you know?!!!
    If you were him, would you kill your son in your heart?!!- Ibrahim offered his son. It means offering was made! How? In His heart and by using the ram which was given to Him by God as a substitute.
    The Faith of the Patriarchs

    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
    Hebrews 11: 17-20

    This symbol contradicts the crucifixion, that Allah the most merciful refused to let a man to kill his son, would you think Allah would do if he had a son?!!! – Yes, right. It was a TEST of God.

    What people can do and get or gained are different from Allah do. We are His creatures; For example, we go to toilet, bleed, do bad stuff...etc.
    Allah has attributes of perfection and pride ,shortage is impossible in his part; and killing his son ( as you believe ) - by the hand of his creatures - is an unforgivable crime – You are right akhi. Our God is HOLY and His nature is LOVE and He is FAITHFUL and LONGSUFFERING.
    -------------------------

    To be continued

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    Quote
    Quote Originally Posted by bahiraomar View Post

    To be continued
    I am waiting for your continuance

    I wanna tell you something, I am travelling overseas today, and Iwill be home in 3 weeks.... inshaallah

    You can complete your answer till I come back, I promise to answer it if I find a chance to do there or when I come back home....inshaallah

    That gives you enough time to think deeper!!!, So, please, Bahira, reread what I wrote to you with your mind and heart, as you try to repeat the same reasons even after the bible refuses your opinion... and reread what you wrote and feel it, do you believe in each word you say? does it give sense or not!!

    Concerning the trinity, i promised u to discuss it here together, but on time, after finishing crucifixion

    best regards
    من هنا نبدأ ... وفي الجنة نلتقي
    إن شاء الله

    نقره لتكبير أو تصغير الصورة ونقرتين لعرض الصورة في صفحة مستقلة بحجمها الطبيعي

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A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar

A debate between Authentic Man and our decent guest bahiraomar