Thread: Jesus is not God in the bible

Quote

Originally Posted by Burninglight

This is how deep your deception appears to be. I see you deceiving yourself and Allah using deception and admitting he is the best of deceivers and proving he is by making something appear to be true that was not true. What kind of plan do you call that? Making things appear to be what they are is not the work of my God and Savior; it is the work of my adversary who goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour.

First of all, read this
http://www.answering-christianity.co..._deceivers.htm

Quote

1- What does the Glorious Quran Say?Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran:

[TR]
[TD="width: 39%, bgcolor: #D5F1FF"]Noble Verse(s) 8:30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 39%, bgcolor: #EAF4FF"]Pickthall:[008:030] And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
Arabic (Read from right to left. Also, all png image files: [1] [2]):
‏8:30 واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين[/TD]
[/TR]

There are few important points to notice here:
1- The disbelievers and the evil ones plotted against Islam.
2- Allah Almighty plotted on the disbelievers' plots, and turned their plots on their heads.
3- Allah Almighty is the best of plotters.
So does this mean that Allah Almighty is the Best or Greatest of all deceivers? The answer is a qualified yes. Allah Almighty does not plot against Good. Allah Almighty plots only against evil. Therefore, Allah Almighty plots against and deceives the enemies of Allah Almighty. This is further supported in the following Noble Verses:
"We have always sent messengers who were proficient in the language of their people, so they could explain the matter clearly. Allah guides or leads astray whomever He pleases. He is the most Powerful, the Wisest! (The Noble Quran, 14:4)"
"Had Allah wished, He would have created you all as a single nation. But He guides or leads astray whomever He pleases. And you would very definitely be interrogated regarding everything you used to do! (The Noble Quran, 16:93)"
So the statement that the Islam haters usually utter, "the GOD of Islam is the greatest of all deceivers", is false, because Allah Almighty doesn't deceive the Good Believers. Allah Almighty only deceives the enemies of Allah Almighty:
If Allah Almighty also plots against good, then the Islam haters' statement would be true.

But since Allah Almighty does not plot against Good, then the Islam haters' general statement is false. It is only true on them, and not on what is Good.

So yes indeed. Allah Almighty is the Best one to deceive and misguide the doomed-to-Hell disbelievers.

This is similar to describing God as Jealous in both the Bible and Islam

Deutronomy 6:15
New International Version
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Describing someone as jealous may be a bad description, but when we describe God as jealous, this description if understood in the proper way is not a bad description

Regarding the crucifiction of Jesus Pbuh, yes we believe that God deceived those who wanted to crucify him
The jews want to kill one of the messengers and prophets of God, one of his followers deceived him and told the jews and romans about his place
What a lot of muslims believe - and this may be true however we are not sure that this is 100% true - is that God made Judah look like Jesus Pbuh and the romans took him and crucified him and in this way Jesus Pbuh was saved
What's the problem in this?
Judah betrayed Jesus Pbuh and tried to help his enemies crucify him, God saved his messenger Jesus Pbuh and caused the one who betrayed him to be crucified
what's your objection ?

I'll answer the rest of your first post later on ....

Quote

Jesus is not God in the bible

May Allah bless you brother 3ABD-ERRAHMAN


Old Bible Proves Quran is Right

This video is an Islamic message; it has nothing to do with what Jesus' brothers believed about Jesus. It is full of speculation, assumptions, conjecture and poor inferences. Jesus' brothers saying nothing about Jesus death of the cross doesn't mean they didn't believe it didn't happen for our sin. The video is using silence in the Bible to give their Islamic interpretation. Jude says this Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,

To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Judgment on False Teachers

3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jude
Our common salvation is our Lord Jesus the son of the living God who died for our sin and rose from the dead. Those that reject this message do so at their own eternal peril. Satan will give you a way out of believing the only hope of glory you have such as lying videos like this. Jude considered himself a servant of Jesus His Lord. The brothers of Jesus knew as Mary did that Jesus was and is divine and special beyond all prophets, because of His virgin birth, mission and relationship to God as His word . That made His father God in a unique sense that Muslims, IMHO, deny to their own shame and demise. Deedat who quoted in Arabic "Truth smashes the brains of falsehood" before which debate seems to have had his brains smashed in the end for 9 years before his death. I say learning from the mistakes of others is far better than having to learn from your own, because it may be too late to learn from your own when it comes to matters such as these. I pray that God smashes the brains of the lies against Jesus. May Jesus receive the reward of His suffering!

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

First of all, read this
http://www.answering-christianity.co..._deceivers.htm



This is similar to describing God as Jealous in both the Bible and Islam

Deutronomy 6:15
New International Version
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Describing someone as jealous may be a bad description, but when we describe God as jealous, this description if understood in the proper way is not a bad description

Regarding the crucifiction of Jesus Pbuh, yes we believe that God deceived those who wanted to crucify him
The jews want to kill one of the messengers and prophets of God, one of his followers deceived him and told the jews and romans about his place
What a lot of muslims believe - and this may be true however we are not sure that this is 100% true - is that God made Judah look like Jesus Pbuh and the romans took him and crucified him and in this way Jesus Pbuh was saved
What's the problem in this?
Judah betrayed Jesus Pbuh and tried to help his enemies crucify him, God saved his messenger Jesus Pbuh and caused the one who betrayed him to be crucified
what's your objection ?

With all due respect I beg your leave to but in on this point.. But.. I see your post shows IMHO a lack of understanding of deception and the dangers behind it.


It was God himself who used the term "jealous" to describe an aspect of his personality in this instance, so I'm not sure why the term would be a matter of criticism unless a person is not aware of the fact that there is actually a "righteous" form of jealousy. The Scriptures speak of 2 types of jealousy (both a positive and a negative one). The negative or "unrighteous" type of jealousy (which humans tend to display the most) is based on selfishness, greed, ambition, covetousness, and a desire to gain possession or domination of something which legally or rightfully belongs to someone else. Those negative qualities are not what God is referring to when he describes himself as being jealous. I don't know how you view "jealously" in relation to Allah, but for sure the Bible inference is not negative.

However, the terms deceiving or plotting does have more negative implications than positive. Neither of which I can attribute to a Holy God.

To deceive is deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.


synonyms: swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, hoodwink, hoax, dupe, take in, mislead, delude, fool, outwit, misguide, lead on, inveigle, seduce, ensnare, entrap, beguile, double-cross.


To plot .. secretly make plans to carry out (an illegal or harmful action).
synonyms: plan, scheme, arrange, organize, lay, hatch, concoct, devise, frame, think up, dream up, cook up, brew, conceive,
conspire, scheme, participate in a conspiracy, intrigue, collude, connive,



This "scheme" of Allah to make someone appear to have died in the place of Jesus makes no sense. If we are led to believe throughout scripture and by the words of Jesus Himself that He was sent to die for us. Then in fact He does not die.. But someone else does. Who is deceived? We are.. His followers. Why would Jesus spend His mission teaching one thing then betray us all at the end.. Thus leading us astray. The act of crucifixion and a death was not the only requirement.. It had to be the death Jesus as a sinless being.. Not just some random guy that may have been Judas or may have been some other.. A scenario you have no proof of and is nothing but conjecture. Besides the Jews did not simply want to kill Jesus because He was another prophet or messenger of God.. They wished Him dead because they did not believe He was who He said He was.. The Messiah. The charged Him with blasphemy for claiming to be God. His death meant nothing to them because to them he was a false Messiah.. So they were not deceived. The Romans who carried out the sentence? They only knew of Jesus as a condemned man who was to be executed according to their laws.. So they were not deceived. The only people who would have been deceived by this cruel deception would have been the followers of Jesus Christ. Were we deceived? No.. Because we know that Jesus is who He claims to be, He did die for us and He rose again conquering death and lives still so we can also enjoy life everlasting.

So... The only people truly deceived are those who do not believe in Jesus and do not accept Him as their redeemer. But that deception is not from God.


My objection to your scenario is it does not make sense. There is no sense in Islam accepting the virgin birth of Jesus, claiming to respect Jesus as a Prophet confirming the belief He is the Messiah whilst denying the crucifixion ever happened. For an event holding such a monumental position in Christianity as the crucifixion I would have expected, had God made and error thereby leading His people through deception into false belief then God would have been clearer in the Quran on this matter and not leave any ifs, buts or maybes.. I do not mean that to sound disrespectful, but if I am to be honest then that is my considered opinion.

Peace.

As I mentioned, Jesus' brothers saying nothing about Jesus death of the cross doesn't mean they didn't believe it happen for our sin. Jude calls himself not a brother of Jesus but a servant and he refers to James as is brother. Look at what James said, "My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory." James 2
When we have faith in someone, and call him Lord, that shows a worshipping spirit. You don't put your faith in just a man, They knew Jesus was way above them spiritual, and it had nothing to do with Him being a prophet. They knew He was and is King of King, Lord of Lords and a prophet's prophet. They know Jesus was and is the Word of God; this could be said of no other prophet ever. If Muhammad were from my God and Creator, he would have been preaching Jesus Christ and exalting Him. Anyone trying to exalt God without lifting up Jesus is not communication past their own ceiling.
May God guide you to truth

Will be back either on Friday or Saturday

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

Will be back either on Friday or Saturday

Why did you lock our thread of discussion after you got in the last word?

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

I don't know why do you say that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name?
This is completely wrong.
Prove it if you can.

What is God's name according to Islam's messenger friend?

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

First of all, my name is not Arahman, it's Abd Arahman

Arahman means the most graceful and merciful

This is the name of God.

Okay, I accept that God is called Allah in Arabic and that the name of Islam's god is Arahman, but it is not His name according to the Jews and Christians. Perhaps that is why Allah considers us the worse of creatures in the Quran which is less than a dog, cat or insect/ worm.

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

Burninglight, it will be better if you stop just arguing and think of what others are telling you
You are very emotional
This surely affects your decisions and choices when comparing religions
Some of your arguments are ridiculous because you are just following your emotions

Please don't go there.

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

For example you are arguing that because Jesus Pbuh has been born from virgin, he must be God
This is an extremely ridiculous argument and you know it's ridiculous
So simply, God can create a man without a father to show people his power and that he can do what he wants and that he can break all rules of physics and biology if he wants to
The argument that since he has no human father, his father must be God, is an extremely ridiculous argument
What about all the animals that come to life through Parthenogenesis from a mother without a father? Are they sons of God?
Stop being so emotional, in order to stop sticking to such ridiculous arguments and in order to have a sound judgement

I never said Jesus was God because He was born of a virgin. You said I am saying that which I haven't said, and that is the only way you can gainsay me falsely. Now you stir up the emotion of laughter in me, LOL.

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

A lot of your posts and arguments have been gainsaid but you can't see this because you are emotional
A typical example of this is your argument that Jesus is divine because he has been born by a virgin.

Go ahead and patronize me again and again. I have already mentioned how you gainsay me, LOL

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

Actually, according to your Bible, Jesus Pbuh himself is a servant of God

So do you think that Jesus Pbuh is a servant or a slave of God and you are not ?
It is wirth to mention that the word in the arabic translations of the Bible that is used instead of Servant in Matthew 12 is not خادم ( Khadem) which means servant but is Abd ( عبد) which means slave

15"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. Jn. 15
But for as many as received Him to them gave He the power to become the sons of God, but I don't mind being a servant of God either. You can be both. Jesus said the greatest among you will be your servant. Jesus made himself a servant of His disciples by washing their feet. We see the term servant differently friend. I have the understanding my God gave me for it.

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

In Christianity, God is described as a Father to show his love and mercy and men are described as his sons
In islam, we don't describe God as a father and we don't describe ourselves as sons of God, because describing our relation to God in this way has been misused by christians. Some of the early christians used to describe Jesus Pbuh as son of God, to show that God loves him, exactly as David and Solomon has been described as sons of God in the OT. However, after describing Jesus as son of God to show that God loves him, people began to believe that this means that he is God. This is why we don't describe God as a father in Islam or say that we are the sons of God.
However, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh taught us that God is not just as loving and merciful as a father, but that God is more loving and merciful than a mother. There’s a Hadith where a mother had lost her child during a battle, and she was looking for him fearing the worst. When she found him, she held him close and it was one of the most powerful scenes of love and mercy the companions have seen that they started to weep. Our Beloved peace be upon him said, “do you wonder at the mercy this mother had for her child? God is far more merciful to His servants than this mother is to her child!”

If he taught you that, what is wrong with considering God your father? When a child speaks to his parents he doesn't say "Oh my great and merciful loving masterful mother with father's permission may your slave I beg you go and get a glass of milk from the refrigerator" LOL

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

In Islam, you are 100 % safe as long as you believe in God, all of his messengers, all of his books and in judgement day and you do good deeds.
This is the guarantee that the holy Quran gives to all people :


(من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون)

النحل 97

( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97

So your security in Islam, depends on believing in the religion of God and doing rightousness
However, we don't think that we are sure that we are 100% safe in judgement day, because we don't know how our deeds will be at our death ? At our death, will we be believers doing good deeds ? If so, we are safe but we don't know how will we be at our death.

Abu Bakr who was Islam's prophet's right hand man couldn't say what you said; yet you could. He said, "I couldn't trust the Makr of Allah is I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" You are telling me that bakr meant something different than what he said. If he didn't say what he meant, why didn't he say what he meant.

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

What about christianity?
You think that you are safe because God made the Jews and Romans kill his son or himself on the cross !!!
Surely, this is a very strange concept
However, let me ask you a question
Do you think that you are secure even if you kill other people or rob them or do very bad deeds just because you believe that God has sacrificed his son ?
If so, then surely christianity is not the true religion because it encourages people to do bad deeds just because they believe that they are secure whatever their deeds are, as long as they believe that Jesus Pbuh was crucified
If you think that to be secure, you must do good deeds, then this is the same as Islam, so there is no point at all in your objection
In Islam we have hope in God and in the same time we fear him
We hope that he will forgive us and have mercy on us and in the same time we fear his punishment
Our fear from god prevents us from doing bad deeds
Abu Bakr did not say that he does not trust God of course, but what he said means that he will fear God even if one of his legs was in paradise and the other is still outside it

I have addressed this. I don't think I am saved; I know it. We are saved by God's grace through faith. it is not according to what we did or do. It is according to what Christ did. I know I am saved because of the righteousness of Christ who creates in me the will to do according to God's good pleasure and not according to what I consider good deeds. You are trust in the arm of the flesh to do good deeds for God which cam never make up for the wrong deeds you've done. Just like in a court of law. If I murder someone and then repent and start doing good deeds, the court will not let me go and justice is not served until I pay for my crime with my life. Jesus paid for my crime. That is why I know I am safe. To God I am the righteousness of Christ . You have nothing to atone for the wrongs you have done against God and that you are yet to do. This is tantamount to being on death row as a slave prisoner as the guards walk you through the chamber hall shouting out "Dead man walking dead man walking."

Quote

Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman

Well, this is just what you want to think
I told you, we do this with all members whether muslims or christians
We do this with christians, because some of them speak about Islam and Prophet MuhammadPbuh in a very rude offending way
Thank you

Well, I hope not to be rude about your prophet, but I hope you can understand that I don't see him as mine. And I don't believe things add up. IOW, I don't believe a Muslim most make over a hundred posts before he or she can post directly and Pandora has had over 500 posts as she mentioned without saying anything negative about Islam, and she cannot post directly. This is the sense of justice I feel I can expect for Islam; Islam's messenger and god thanks to forum policy you described. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. To know about one's religion, we can see how they treat others and come to our own conclusions. I could be wrong, but I am just calling it honestly the way I see it.