Thread: help for translation 2

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist.../16/index.html
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جعله الله في ميزان حسناتكم .

اخي حضرتك عايز الكتاب كله ؟!
لاننا كنا فعلا بدانا في ترجمته و اظن ان هناك بعض الفصول انتهت و لا حضرتك عايز جزء معين ؟!

Quote

Originally Posted by nour_el_huda

اخي حضرتك عايز الكتاب كله ؟!
لاننا كنا فعلا بدانا في ترجمته و اظن ان هناك بعض الفصول انتهت و لا حضرتك عايز جزء معين ؟!

أختي الفاضلة

هذا الموضوع مرتبط بموضوع الأخ سعد
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15683
.

ويمكنك مراجعة ما جاء بهذه الصفحة
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/showthre...t=15683&page=2
.

خيرا ان شاء الله تعالي
ان شاء الله نبدا في ترجمتة هنا علي شكل حلقات,هو الاخ مور كان بدا في ترجمتة لكن لا اعلم هل اتم المشروع ام لا..
الله المستعان نبدا باذن لله..

الكاتب بيقول في المقدمة ان المخلصين ال 16 اللي هو اسم الكتاب هو دراسة لتطورات التاريخ الديني و هل هو مبني علي حقيقة ام انها مجرد خرافات تداولتها الاجيال؟! و اذا كان حقيقة اين بدات ؟! و متي بدات ؟ و من هم مكتشفوها و من روج لها ؟!
دة باختصار شديد جدا و نبدأ ان شاء الله في ترجمة الفصل الاول..
بسم الله نبدأ...

أختي في الله نور الهدى

طالما الأخ سعد في الموضوع طلب الاهتمام بكريشنا

أعتقد يكون المطلوب هو الجزء ده:

. -- CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
Among the sin-atoning Gods who condescended in ancient times to forsake the throne of heaven, and descend upon the plains of India, through human birth, to suffer and die for the sins and transgressions of the human race, the eighth Avatar, or Savior, may be considered the most important and the most exalted character, as he led the most conspicuous life, and commanded the most devout and the most universal homage. And while some of the other incarnate demigods were invested with only a limited measure of the infinite deityship, Chrishna, according to the teachings of their New Testament (the Ramazand), comprehended in himself "a full measure of the God-head bodily." The evidence of his having been crucified is as conclusive as any other sacrificial or sin-atoning God, whose name has been memorialized in history, or embalmed as a sacred idol in the memories of his devout worshipers.

Mr. Moore, an English traveler and writer, in a large collection of drawings taken from Hindoo sculptures and monuments, which he has arranged together in a work entitled "The Hindoo Pantheon," has one representing, suspended on the cross, the Hindoo crucified God and Son of God, "our Lord and Savior" Chrishna, with holes pierced in his feet, evidently intended to represent the nail-holes made by the act of crucifixion. Mr. Higgins, who examined this work, which he found in the British Museum, makes a report of a number of the tran****** drawings intended to represent the crucifixion of this oriental and mediatorial God, which we will here condense. Savior is represented with a hole in the top of one foot, just above the toes, where the nail was inserted in the act of crucifixion.

In another drawing he is represented exactly in the form of a Romish Christian crucifix, but not fixed or fastened to a tree, though the legs and feet are arranged in the usual way, with nail- holes in the latter. There is a halo of glory over it, emanating from the heavens above, just as we have seen Jesus Christ represented in a work by a Christian writer, entitled "Quarles' Emblems," also in other Christian books. In several of the icons (drawings) there are marks of holes in both feet, and in others of holes in the hands only. In the first drawing which he consulted the marks are very faint, so as to be scarcely visible. In figures four and five of plate eleven the figures have nail-holes in both feet, while the hands are not represented. Figure six has on it the representation of a round hole in the side. To his collar or shirt hangs an emblem of a heart, represented in the same manner as those attached to the imaginary likenesses of Jesus Christ, which may now be found in some Christian countries Figure ninety-one has a hole in one foot and a nail through the other, and a round nail or pin mark in one hand only, while the other is ornamented with a dove and a serpent (both emblems of deity in the Christian's bible).

Now, we raise the query here, and drive it into the innermost temple of the Christian's conscience, with the overwhelming force of the unconquerable logic of history -- What does all this mean?

And if they will only let convention have its perfect work while answering this question unhampered by the inherited prejudices of a thousand years, they can henceforth rejoice in the discovery of a glorious historical truth, calculated to disenthrall their minds from the soul-cramping superstitions of crosses, crucifixions and bloody atonements on which they have been accustomed to hang the salvation of the world.

If the credibility of the relation of these incidents going to prove an astonishing coincidence in the sacred histories of the Hindoo and Christian Saviors, and demonstrating the doctrine of the crucifixion as having been practically realized, and preached to the world long anterior to the offering of a God "once for all" on Mount Calvary; if its credibility rested on mere 'ex parte' testimony, mere pagan tradition, or even upon the best digested and most authentic annals of the past that have escaped the ravages time, there might still be a forlorn hope for the stickler for the Christian faith now struggling in the agonies of a credal skepticism, that the whole thing has been plagiarized from the Christian Gospels. For paper and parchment history can be -- and has been -- mutilated. But the verity of this account rests upon no such a precarious basis. Its antiquity, reaching far beyond the Christian era, is corroborated and demonstrated by imperishable monuments, deep-chiseled indentures burrowed into the granite rock, which bid defiance to the fingers of time, and even the hands of the frenzied iconoclast, to destroy or deface, though impelled and spurred on to the effort by the long-cherished conviction burning in his soul, that the salvation of the human race depends upon believing that "there is no other name given under heaven whereby men can be saved" than his own crucified God, and that all others are but thieves robbers and antichrists. Some of the disciples of the oriental systems cherished this conviction, and Christians and Mahommedans seem to have inherited it in magnified proportions.

Hence, we are credibly informed that some of the earlier Christian saints, having determined, like Paul, "to know only Jesus Christ and him crucified," made repeated efforts to obliterate these sacred facts (so fatally damaging to their one-sided creeds) from the page of history. Mr. Higgins suggests that if we could have persons less under the influence of sectarian prejudice to visit, examine, and report on the sculptures and monuments of India, covered over as they are with antiquated and significant figures appertaining to and illustrating their religious history, we might accumulate still more light bearing upon the history of the crucifixion of the Savior and sin-atoning Chrishna. "Most of our reports," he declares, "are fragmentary, if not one-sided, having come through the hands of Christian missionaries, bishops and priests."

He informs us that a report on the Hindoo religion, made out by a deputation from the British Parliament, sent to India for the purpose of examining their sacred books and monuments, being left in the hands of a Christian bishop at Calcutta, and with instructions to forward it to England, was found, on its arrival in London, to be so horribly mutilated and eviscerated as to be scarcely cognizable. The account of the crucifixion was gone -- canceled out. The inference is patent.

And we have it upon the authority of this same reliable and truthful writer (Sir Godfrey Higgins) that the author of the Hindoo Pantheon (Mr. Moor), after having announced his intention to publish it to the world, was visited and labored with by some of his devout Christian neighbors zealous "for the faith once delivered to the saints," who endeavored to dissuade him from publishing such facts to the world as he represented his book to contain, for fear it would have the effect to unsettle the faith of some of the weak brethren (some of the weak-kneed church members) in the soul-saving religion of Jesus Christ, by raising doubts in their minds as to the originality of the gospel story of the crucifixion of Christ, or at least of his having been crucified as a God for a sin-offering. His crucifixion is a possible event. It may be thus far a true narrative, but the adjunct of the atonement, with its efficacy to obliterate the effects of sin, connected with the idea that an infinite, omnipotent and self-existent God was put to death, when a human form was slain upon the cross -- never, no, never. It is a thought too monstrous to find lodgment in an enlightened human mind.

Another case evincing the same spirit as that narrated above is found in the circumstance of a Christian missionary (a Mr. Maurice) publishing a historical account of this man-god or demigod of the Hindoos, and omitting any allusion to his crucifixion; this was entirely left out, apparently from design. His death, resurrection and ascension were spoken of, but the crucifixion skipped over. He could not have been ignorant of this chapter in his history, as the writers preceding him, from whom he copied, had related it.

Among this number may be mentioned the learned French writer Monsier Guigniant, who, in his "Religion of the Ancients," speaks so specifically of the crucifixion of this God, as to name the circumstance of his being nailed to a tree. He also states, that before his exit he made some remarkable prophecies appertaining to the crimes and miseries of the world in the approaching future, reminding us of the wars and rumors of wars predicted by the Christian Messiah. Mr. Higgins names the same circumstance.

We have it upon the authority of more than one writer on Hindoo or Indian antiquities that there is a rock temple at Mathura in the form of a cross, and facing the four cardinal points of the compass, which is admitted by all beholders as presenting the proof in bold relief of extreme age, and inside of this temple stands a statue of "the Savior of men," Chrishna of India, presenting the proof of being coeval in construction with the temple itself by the circumstance of its being cut out of the same rock and constituting a part of the temple. (Further citations of this character will be found under the head of Parallels, Chapter XXXII.)

Thus we have the proof deeply and indelibly carved in the old, time-chiseled rocks of India -- that their "Lord and Savior Chrishna" atoned for the sins of a grief-stricken world by "pouring out his blood as a propitiatory offering" while stretched upon the cross. No wonder, in view of such historic bulwarks, Col. Wiseman, for ten years a Christian missionary should have exclaimed, "Can we be surprised that the enemies of our holy religion should seize upon this legend (the crucifixion of Chrishna) as containing the original of our gospel history?"

Christian reader, please ponder over the facts of this chapter, and let conviction have its perfect work.

LIFE, CHARACTER, RELIGION, AND MIRACLES OF CHRISHNA
The history of Chrishna Zeus (or Jeseus, as some writers spell it) is contained principally in the Baghavat Gita, the episode portion of the Mahabaret bible. The book is believed to be divinely inspired, like all other bibles; and the Hindoos claim for it an antiquity of six thousand years. Like Christ, he was of humble origin, and like him had to encounter opposition and persecution.

But he seems to have been more successful in the propagation of his doctrines; for it is declared, "he soon became surrounded by many earnest followers, and the people in vast multitudes followed him, crying aloud, 'This is indeed the Redeemer promised to our fathers.'" His pathway was thickly strewn with miracles, which consisted in healing the sick, curing lepers, restoring the dumb, deaf and the blind, raising the dead, aiding the weak, comforting the sorrow-stricken, relieving the oppressed, casting out devils, etc. He come not ostensibly to destroy the previous religion, but to purify it of its impurities, and to preach a better doctrine. He came, as he declared, "to reject evil and restore the reign of good, and redeem man from the consequences of the fall, and deliver the oppressed earth from its load of sin and suffering." His disciples believed him to be God himself, and millions worshiped him as such in the time of Alexander the Great, 330 B.C.

The hundreds of counterparts to the history of Christ, proving their histories to be almost identical, will be found enumerated in Chapter XXXII, such as -- 1. His miraculous birth by a virgin. 2. The mother and child being visited by shepherds, wise men and the angelic host, who joyously sang, "In thy delivery, O favored among women, all nations shall have cause to exult." 3. The edict of the tyrant ruler Cansa, ordering all the first born to be put to death. 4. The miraculous escape of the mother and child from his bloody decree by the parting of the waves of the River Jumna to permit them to pass through on dry ground. 5. The early retirement of Chrishna to a desert. 6. His baptism or ablution in the River Ganges, corresponding to Christ's baptism in Jordan. 7. His transfiguration at Madura, where he assured his disciples that "present or absent, I will always be with you." 8. He had a favorite disciple (Arjoon), who was his bosom friend, as John was Christ's. 9. He was anointed with oil by women, like Christ. 10. A somewhat similar fish story is told of him -- his disciples being enabled by him to catch large draughts of the finny prey in their nets. (For three hundred other similar parallels, see Chapter XXXII.)

Like Christ, he taught much by parables and precepts. A notable sermon preached by him is also reported, which we have not space for here.

On one occasion, having returned from a ministerial journey, as he entered Madura, the people came out in crowds to meet him, strewing the ground with the branches of cocoa-nut trees, and desiring to hear him. He addressed them in parables -- the conclusion and moral of one of which, called the parable of the fishes, runs thus: "And thus it is, O people of Madura, that you ought to protect the weak and each other, and not retaliate upon an enemy the wrongs he may have done you." Here we see the peace doctrine preached in its purity. "And thus it was," says a writer, "that Chrishna spread among the people the holy doctrines of purest morality, and initiated his hearers into the exalted principles of charity, of self-denial, and self-respect at a time when the desert countries of the west were inhabited only by savage tribes;" and we will add, long before Christianity was thought of. Purity of life and spiritual insight, we are told, were distinguishing traits in the character of this oriental sin-atoning Savior, and that "he was often moved with compassion for the downtrodden and the suffering."

A Buddhist in Ceylon, who sent his son to a Christian school, once remarked to a missionary, "I respect Christianity as a help to Buddhism." Thus is disclosed the fact that the motives of some of "the heathen" in sending to Christian schools is the promotion of their own religion, which they consider superior, and in many respects most of them are. (For proof, see Chapter on Bibles.)

We have the remarkable admission of the Christian Examiner that "the best precepts of the (Christian) bible are contained in the Hindoo Baghavat." Then it is not true that "Christ spake as man never spake." And if his "best precepts" were previously recorded in an old heathen bible, then they afford no proof of his divinity. This suicidal concession of the Examiner pulls up the claims of orthodox Christianity by the roots.

And many of the precepts uttered by Chrishna display a profound wisdom and depth of thought equal to any of those attributed to Jesus Christ. In proof of the statement, we will cite a few examples out of the hundreds in our possession: --

Those who do not control their passions cannot act properly toward others.

The evils we inflict upon others follow us as our shadows follow our bodies.

Only the humble are beloved of God.

Virtue sustains the soul as the muscles sustain the body.

When the poor man knocks at your door, take him and administer to his wants, for the poor are the chosen of God. (Christ said, "God hath chosen the poor.")

Let your hand be always open to the unfortunate.

Look not upon a woman with unchaste desires.

Avoid envy, covetousness, falsehood, imposture and slander, and sexual desires.

Above all things, cultivate love for your neighbor.

When you die you leave your worldly wealth behind you, but your virtues and vices follow you.

Contemn riches and worldly honor.

Seek the company of the wicked in order to reform them.

Do good for its own sake, and expect not your reward for it on earth.

The soul is immortal, but must be pure and free from all sin and stain before it can return to Him who gave it.

The soul is inclined to good when it follows the inward light.

The soul is responsible to God for its actions, who has established rewards and punishments.

Cultivate that inward knowledge which teaches what is right and wrong.

Never take delight in another's misfortunes.

It is better to forgive an injury than to avenge it.

You can accomplish by kindness what you cannot by force.

A noble spirit finds a cure for injustice by forgetting it.

Pardon the offense of others, but not your own.

What you blame in others do not practice yourself.

By forgiving an enemy you make many friends.

Do right from hatred of evil, and not from fear of punishment.

A wise man corrects his own errors by observing those of others.

He who rules his temper conquers his greatest enemy.

The wise man governs his passions, but the fool obeys them.

Be at war with men's vices, but at peace with their persons.

There should be no disagreement between your lives and your doctrine.

Spend every day as though it were the last.

Lead not one life in public and another in private.

Anger in trying to torture others punishes itself.

A disgraceful death is honorable when you die in a good cause.

By growing familiar with vices, we learn to tolerate them easily.

We must master our evil propensities, or they will master us.

He who has conquered his propensities rules over a kingdom.

Protect, love and assist others, if you would serve God.

From thought springs the will, and from the will action, true or false, just or unjust.

As the sandal tree perfumes the axe which fells it, so the good man fragrances on his enemies.

Spend a portion of each day in pious devotion.

To love the virtues of others is to brighten your own.

He who gives to the needy loses nothing himself.

A good, wise and benevolent man cannot be rich.

Much riches is a curse to the possessor.

The wounds of the soul are more important than those of the body.

The virtuous man is like the banyan tree, which ****ters and protelqs all around it.

Money does not satisfy the love of gain, but only stimulates it.

Your greatest enemy is in your own bosom.

To flee when charged is to confess your guilt.

The wounds of conscience leave a sear.

Compare these fifty-one precepts of Chrishna with the forty- two precepts of Christ, and you must confess they suffer nothing by the comparison. If we had space we would like to quote also from the Vedas. We will merely cite a few examples relative to woman.

He who is cursed by woman is cursed by God.

God will punish him who laughs at woman's sufferings.

When woman is honored, God is honored.

The virtuous woman will have but one husband, and the right-minded man but one wife.

It is the highest crime to take advantage of the weakness of woman.

Woman should be loved, respected and protected by husbands, fathers and brothers, etc. (For more, see Chapter on Bibles.)

Before we close this chapter we must anticipate and answer an objection. It will be said that the reported amours of Chrishna and his rencounter with Canna constitute a criticism on his character. If so, we will point to Christ's fight or angry combat with the money-changers in the temple as an offset to it. And then it should be remembered that Chrishna's disciples claim that these stories are mere fable, or allegorical, and are not found in the most approved or canonical writings.

أختي : رجاء إعلامي بما تنوين

أخي الفاضل: السيف البتار
جعلكم الله مفتاحاً لكل خير

IT is claimed by the disciples of Jesus Christ, that he was of supernatural and divine origin; that he had a human being for a mother, and a God for his father; that, although he was woman- conceived, he was Deity-begotten, and molded in the human form, but comprehending in essence a full measure of the infinite Godhead; thus making him half human and half divine in his sublunary origin. It is claimed that he was full and perfect God, and perfect man; and while he was God, he was also the son of God, and as such was sent down by his father to save a fallen and guilty world; and that thus his mission pertained to the whole human race; and his inspired seers are made to declare that ultimately every nation, tongue, kindred, and people under heaven will acknowledge allegiance to his government, and concede his right to reign and rule the world; that "every knee must bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

يدعي اتباع السيد المسيح ان صاحب طبيعة خارقة و مقدسة,فهو انسان لامه و اله لابيه و بالرغم من ان امرأة حملت به الا انه مولود من اله و تم تشكيله علي شكل انسان و لكنه في جوهره اله غير محدود و هكذا فهو نصف اله نصف انسان ..
و يدعوا ايضا انه انسان كامل و اله كامل و بينما هو اله كان ايضا ابن الله المرسل من قبل اباه لينقذ العالم من الخطية و هكذا كانت مهمته لانقاذ الجنس البشري كله و اتباعه الملهمون " الحواريون " و ظيفتهم التبشير به ليعلم عنه القاصي و الداني و تفر الجموع اليه وتنمحه حقه في حكم العالم

""every knee must bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

But we do not find that this prophecy has ever been or is likely to be fulfilled. We do not observe that this claim to the infinite deityship of Jesus Christ has been or is likely to be universally conceded. On the contrary, it is found. that by a portion, and a large portion of the people of even those nations now called Christian, this claim has been steadily and unswervingly controverted, through the whole line of history, stretching through the nearly two thousand years which have elapsed since his advent to earth.

و لكننا لم نجد ان هذه النبؤة تحققت , لم نلاحظ ان الادعاء بالوهية يسوع المسيح انتشرت في العالم و اصبحت دعوة عالمية بل علي العكس فاننا نجد شعوبا باكملها ترفض هذا الادعاء و حتي في داخل المجتمعات المسماه مسيحية فان هذا الادعاء تمت مخالفته و بوضوح عبر التاريخ و امتداد خلال 2000 سنة التي انقضت منذ وصوله للارض..

Even some of those who are represented to have been personally acquainted with him -- aye! some of his own brethren in the flesh, children in the same household, children of the same mother -- had the temerity to question the tenable ness of his claim to a divine emanation. And when we extend our researches to other countries, we find this claim, so far from being conceded, is denied and contested by whole nations upon other grounds. It is met and confronted by rival claims.

حتي بعض من الذين التقوا به شخصيا , البعض من اخوته اطفال من نفس العائلة او اخوتة من امه كان عندهم الجراة للسؤال و التشكيك في طبيعتة المقدسة ..
و اذا وسعنا البحث ليشمل مجتمعات اخري نجد ان هذا الادعاء "بالالوهية" بعيد كل البعد عن القبول , بل تم رفضة من قبل امم باكملها و منافسته بعقائد و اعتقادات اخري...

يعني اترجم الجزء الخاص بكريشنا فقط ؟!
ياريت الاخ سيف يفيدنا .. :(

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Originally Posted by nour_el_huda

يعني اترجم الجزء الخاص بكريشنا فقط ؟!
ياريت الاخ سيف يفيدنا .. :(

الله ينور عليكم .

إحنا عوزين نتحدث عن الـ 16 شخصية وما جاء عنهم شخص شخص لنتثبت أن فكرة الخلاص والفداء والصلب هي ليست فكرة وليدة المسيحية بل جاء من قبل 16 شخص وادعوا ما إدعاته المسيحية

طيب خير ان شاء الله...

اعتقد ال16 هيكونوا كتير اوي على اختي نور

أنا عن نفسي بدأت في كريشنا ..
أختي ماذا تحبين؟

هذه صفحة الخاصه بهم أخية
http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...16/chap16.html

أخيتي : في انتظااار ردك

والله ولي التوفيق