مساعدة فى الرد على شبه باللغة الاتجليزية
الاخوة الاحبة ارجو الرد على الشبه المثاره فى هذه الرسالة و هى من صديق لى فنلندى مهتم بدارسة الاديان و قد ارسلت له نصوص العنف فى الانجيل المحرف لانه قال لى ان المسيحية الرسمية اليوم ليس لها علاقة بالانجيل الحقيقى الذى يدعو للسلام و هو مقر ان الانجيل قد حرف فى 200-300 ميلادية و استبدل مكانها المسيحية الرسمية
Hello Ahmed,
First some words for Bible. There is two totally different kind of books bound between the same covers: New Testament and Old Testament.
• New Testament consists of the known teaches of Jesus and some other writings, too. Teachings of Jesus are throughout humane (real Christianity). Jesus himself lived as he taught. More willingly before he betrays his own teachings he let Jewish clergy to murder him. He fully followed-up his own teachings, he courage of his convictions; he did not resist evil and he even loved enemies. Many of his followers were murdered during the first three hundred centuries. Why? Rome was religiously very liberal – there was at the town Rome even statue for “The Unknown God” that nobody feel himself discriminated for his religious conviction. Why Christian were persecuted? They followed-up the teachings of Jesus and did not swear military oath to Rome’s legion. They did not want to learn to murder people and they did not murder anyone. These kind of people are very dangerous even today!!!!!!!!!!; for instance in Finland the boys that do not want to participate military service are locked in jails. The God of Jesus is loving, beneficial, good willed. He compared his Heaven Father to the Sun that shines and warms everybody.
• Old Testament consists of some writings of Judaism, not even the best of those. Many of the writings are allegoric describing the inner “fighting” of human beings. Anyhow, the writings are very violence, rough, vicious… The God in the Old Testament is not the same God that is in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is morally below the middle level of human beings. His act and his words and instructions authenticate this. I think it is better to use name Devil for the “God” of the Old Testament. According to my understanding the brightest pearl in the Old Testament are the ten commands of Moses – one of the command is: Do not kill. Very clearly without any exceptions.
Rest of my thinking, please, see below. (I have deleted some chapters below because the subject is so broad
4
To: jaakko
Subject: RE: Few words for religion
Heb :12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. The previous verse says that we have to be appreciate and follow-up God (do as God wants). It is very difficult to be all the time good and assent to own destiny. It is not needed to glare toward bad at all. If we keep bad in our mind, if we fight against bad, we develop in bad. We can be only good and then bad burns (consuming fire) out from us.
Luke 19:27:
27 But bring here these enemies of mine, (A) who did not want me to rule over them, and slaughter [a] them in my presence.' "
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Just before this sentence Jesus, using allegory, described the destiny of bad servant. We all have our own abilities; if we don’t use those or if we use those wrong, the abilities are taken off from us. (End of the same allegory, please see Matt. 13:12 and Mark. 4:25. This sentence is missing there.) Perhaps some “devout” monk has added this sentence trying to emphasize the meaning of the allegory of Jesus. In some other places in the New Testament are same kind of brutal expressions that do not dovetail to the Spirit of the Teachings of Jesus.
Matthew 10:34 (New International Version)
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Luke 12:51
51 Do you think that I came here to give peace to the earth? (A) No, I tell you, but rather division!
[Jaakko Kesävuori] These two sentences are allegorical. The word “division” is better than the word “sword”. What happened during the first Christian centuries. Thousands and thousands, even millions people were killed (murdered) due to their religion. If you try to be humanity or if you are humanity, surrounding community arises against you and your humanity. This same happened to Mohammad, too. Jesus cautioned by these sentences his followers what may happen. Cautions regrettably came true – many heads were broken up by sword. Many men and women were perpetrated to martyr.
1Sa:15:3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. As I earlier said, this is not the God of Jesus who asks to do this kind of horrific acts. Saul, due to compassion did not kill the King of Amalek. The “God” became very angry and Samuel by his own hands then axed the King to pieces. This is not honestly the God of Jesus.
A reflection of that matter will clear this misunderstanding. The Prophet started preaching Islam in Makkah, being only one man in the midst of all those polytheists. How could he convert all those supporters to make Arabia almost completely Muslim, if his policy had been killing non-Muslims?!
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, you are right. We “Christianity” have “promulgated” so called “christianity” using swords. Really, we have not tried to spread Christianity. “Christianity” has been only “tool” by which enslave African, Asia, South-America.. people and then rob them economically. We still do same way!!!!! Luckily, people start to think using their own brains.
The point is that it was not the religion of Moses or Jesus Christ that Muhammad was trying to replace. It was the misinterpretations and the distortions that happened to their religion that Muhammad wanted to replace, back to their original authentic teachings. In fact, his mission was to restore the pure religion of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (peace be upon them all). The Islamic view of the earlier religions is clear from the following verses of the Qur’an, Surah 42, verses 13 – 15:
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, back to their original authentic teachings. This is OK. But we do not clearly know the original teachings of Jesus. Original writings are not found. From year 1 to year 325 the “Christianity” has “developed” fully contrary to the original Christianity. (First “christian” war was then, headed by the Emperor Constantia the Great.) Historically is known that the Christian was persecuted due to their human, non-violence principles.
• [Jaakko Kesävuori]
Noah:
I don’t know his “personality” and his teaching. Perhaps by the word Noah the characteristics of the whole mankind is described and then what happened to that mankind.
Abraham:
He came to Israel from Arabic country named Chaldea, from town Ur. (I don’t know if these ancient names are right in English here.) People in Chaldea were interested for instance for astronomy. Both effects: physical aspects as well as mental-suggestive aspects of planets (horoscope).
Moses:
His ten commands are OK. People, who live in accordance with these commands, are externally blameless. Intrinsic people can be like white grave. Commands of Jesus try to change the intrinsic people itself.
David:
I did not find his name in these verses.
It is true that God in His Book permits fighting, but only as a last resort. This is in the cases of:
• Fighting in the case of self-defense.
• Fighting to defend the right of everyone to believe in God and practice His religion.
• Fighting against brutal oppression and injustice.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, I have understood same way. During Mohammad’s last ten years – I think – he personally captained 27 battles: 9 of those were very hard battles. He additionally planed 37 battles but those battles were captained by other persons.
I have tried to find from the Holy Qur’an the verses where Mohammad speaks about violence and war, but it is difficult for me to find those (I am reading the Holy Qur’an from cover to cover, but it takes time.) Please, could you show me some Surah/verses from where war and violence is approached.
In the time of the prophet, we find that he and his people were ruthlessly persecuted and forced out of their homes to flee their beloved town of Makkah. When the prophet (pbuh) and his followers were accorded a grand welcome in Madinah, by the people there, his enemies wanted to destroy the new religion that was taking root in the deserts of Arabia, even by eliminating Muhammad and his followers.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. The circumstantial factors were very difficult. Very difficult to bear up only trusting the good will of God.
It was in this context that the verses permitting fighting were revealed. It was here that fighting against the kuffar (literally non-believers) is mentioned. Here, the meaning is clear: the non-believers mentioned are those who sought to kill the prophet and h is followers, only. This is because, the Holy Qur’an clearly says in Surah 18, verse 29:
*{Say: “The Truth is from your Lord” - Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject [it] … … }*
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, God has made this fire. But, unfortunately, we very often make fire to each others. This is not allowed.
The Qur’an also says in Surah 2, verse 256:
*{There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the false deities and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.}*
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. Just so. All religions at their original chastity have spoken for the same God describing the will of God in different deepness. When basic things are adopted, then deeper is given.
As for your following point about the moon and relating it to paganism and Islam, nothing could be more absurd than this charge! Any one who has a cursory knowledge of Islam knows about its uncompromising stand against paganism.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] I don’t understand your meaning on ”moon”. I have noticed that some countries use the half moon on their flags. I have not heard any other meaning of that.
Paganism:
Who is pagan? I think inside all of us is the same, undivided God. We all serve that God when we are reasonable, loving and good willing. Compassionate. Pure. Righteous. Clement. Peace-makers…. God is inside all of us, even it so weekly appears!!!!
In fact, we can endure painful diseases or brutal tortures; but the thought that there is nobody in the world for us to love, and to love us, is probably the most painful experience.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] We do not need to “make” love. University is full of love, love of God (Allah). It is only needed for us to become involved with this love and then give that love to others by our speaking, thinking and acts.
As I earlier wrote, I have understood that Islam deeply is very human. Your words here for the love has affirmed my understanding. Anyhow, I cannot accept violence and war at all. Jesus has clearly said: Do not be against devil and love you enemies. Being real Christian I have to follow-up teachings of Jesus Christ.
Then in Surah 19, verse 96:
*{On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will the Most Gracious bestow love.}*
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, may be. God does what he does. But it is not allowed for us to wish any reward. Righteousness and goodness are absolute values, like the laws of nature, we have to carry out goodness without any wish of compensations.
As for Surah 30, verse 21:
*{And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between you [your hearts]: verily in that are signs for those who reflect.}*
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. I think this verse is directed to both, men and women. I have understanding that we men are more logical, reasonable, systematic… but ladies are hearty, loving, gentle…. We can learn from each others, we men can study the best characters of ladies and respectively ladies can study the best characteristics of men. Family-life with children brings up us to lean more and more for humanity and love. The last sentence of my Finnish the Holy Qur’an is something like: Earnestly, here are marks for those that ponders.
Also read the following sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):
• “The Compassionate One has mercy on those who are merciful. If you show mercy to those who are on the earth, He Who is in the heaven will show mercy to you.”
• “None of you becomes a believer until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”
• “Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind.”
• “Our Lord descends each night to the earth's sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He [God] says: Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it to him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?”
[Jaakko Kesävuori] What is the meaning of (pbuh). I don’t know the abbreviation.
Now, to the last criticism you have quoted, which is: "The Qur’an is at best contradictory."
[Jaakko Kesävuori] I have understanding that the Holy Qur’an was originally “book” of many separate writings and after the death of Mohammed the writings were bounded together. I have read that Mohammed have said that the revelations can be later completed. This is OK. But I have read, too, that the revelations in the Holy Qur’an is not at the chronological order. Some first given revelations may be after the later, completed revelations. How we can then know what revelations are completed, what are the latest and the final.
Anybody who has done translation work knows the problem of finding equivalents for the original expressions in a language that belongs to an entirely d ifferent culture. This is most obvious in the case of translating works from Arabic to English language. For this reason, part of the problem arises from mistranslation too.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. Abstract facts are very difficult to describe. We willingly make picture even God, but for instance Moses and Mohammed strongly forbids this. But what to do? We have to explain our thinking using words. Describing of Allah – I think you have two good words – ar-Rahmaan and ar-Ramiin. Perhaps the meaning of these words is so wide that those are impossible to translate in English or Finnish.
For example in Arberry, we find the word, “walad” translated as “children”; whereas it means “boy”. And one of the contradictions is cleared by recognition of this inaccurate translation.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes. We ”christian” use word child even Jesus used words the Son of God when describing human beings.
Thus the two foundations of Islam are the Qur’an and the sunnah (=the exemplary life of the Prophet).
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Yes, at the highest level this way. But you have credo (Ŝahada), regular praying, five times per day (Salat), fasting (Saum), to give alms (Zakat) and pilgrimage (Hadž). I know these. But what are the detailed instructions like in Christianity the Sermon on the Mount. Do you have these kind of list of “the most important” teachings of Mohammad? Or – I think better to say: Teachings from Allah conveyed by Mohammad.
[Jaakko Kesävuori] Above are now some of my thinking. Subject is broad, endless, limitless… But, as Jesus said: The thinking of man delves the deepness of the secrets of God.
Greetings to Sayed Rabe
Best regards
Jaakko
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