Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

[pandora]

Quote

no.. They are not three gods, and quite frankly I'm getting fed up of repeating it
You can repeat them as much as you want but repeating something is not answering or explaining.

The trinity is NOT God, it is a doctrine from man to explain the concept of God as revealed in the Bible
Really? Thanks for making that clear I thought it was God (!)(exclamation mark means sarcasm). I know it is not God like Tawheed is not God it is the concept of God. The fact remains no clear evidence of it in your book.

The very idea that God was born or breast fed or indeed carried in the womb for 9 months.. Just goes to show the depth of your misunderstanding.

OK explain to me then, please answer with yes or no
Do you consider Jesus peace upon him God?
Was Jesus born?
Was Jesus breast fed?
Was he carried in the womb for 9 months??

Are these stages not God, he only became God on the cross, and we skip the born part etc, and you pointing finger the blame at Islam is not cutting it Pandora, not sure who you kidding, we do not believe our God is born etc

As for your thread, there is no point on that thread, because you can not explain the trinity, you are trying to make the oneess of God complex. It is simple bring a two year old kid, and tell him God is one, he has no beginning and no end, he is one, no son or father, and then try to explain to him the trinity, God is one the father but he has son, who came to die for our sins and there is holy spirit too but all are one, see which concept he will gasp, and that is the point, you keep telling us our salvation does not depend on trinity, then take Jesus as a messenger not God, because that is the point.


if the only requirement of being considered a Muslim is submitting to God completely, then why are the Jews and Christians who submit to God every day of their lives with sincere hearts and love that knows no bounds not considered muslims?

You Christians follow the law of Jesus peace upon him?
Jesus said
1. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it
2. Not and iota or a dot will pass from the law
3. Whoever relaxes one of the commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven!

What do you Christians do nowadays, do you follow the law? no you do not.


Obviously not the People of the Book.. Who always knew God was never born, breast fed or carried in a womb.

YES the Jews do not believe in a born God but you Christians however do, if you telling me you do not believe in Jesus as God then we have nothing to disagree on.

Why the mention of daughters? Who do you have in mind?

I have nothing in mind except that God does not have sons or daughters. Why do you think I have something in mind? Is it more insulting to God having daughters than sons?

Peace be upon those who follow guidance

Huria, God bless and keep you. I see no benefit to either party in continuing repetition of the same points.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)




14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

I wish you week on your chosen path and pray God guides you to His truth.

Peace unto you.

[pandora]

You you raise a great many points and to simplify things I choose to address a few at a time... I hope that is agreeable to yourself. Firstly, I feel there has been enough said already on the matter of wholesale corruption of the Torah by the Jews, and no real evidence has been forth coming so I see no point going over old ground... Again.

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First : there are many corruption evidence of the torah , historically speaking . What christians claim is because they take in the torah in face value from the jews . As for the prophet in the torah :

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

DEutronomy 18:18

The brothers of the israelites are the ishmaelites

The prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus .. NOT Mohammed. It cannot be Mohammed for numerous reasons.. Most of which I'm sure you have heard before. If you are using the Bible for your source here you have to take it in the context meant and not what you wish it to be. The context of "brethren" was only used for the Israelites.. The only non-Israelite people to be called brethren .. are the Edomites. Esau was Jacob's brother. Jacob was the father of the Israelites. That's as far back as the term "brethren" goes. Esau was a descendant of Issac, not Ishmael. Since the promise to the descendants was named through Isaac, on that basis it is understandable for Esau's descendants to be considered "brethren" to the Israelites. I think you would agree Mohammed was not an Israelite. No prophet was promised from the line of Ishmael.
*Like unto thee... * means like Moses... In what way do you believe Mohammed was like Moses?

*and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.* God spoke directly with Moses as also with Jesus. Prophet Mohammed claimed to receive his revelation from a Spirit.. An angel.

Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." John 5:46

Moses did write about Jesus. Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold.

Both Moses and Jesus authored a Covenant... Prophet Mohammed did not.

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13

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The oracle about Arabia. In the thickets of Arabia you must spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites. 14Bring water for the thirsty, O inhabitants of the land of Tema, Meet the fugitive with bread.15For they have fled from the swords, From the drawn sword, and from the bent bow And from the press of battle. Isaiah 21: 13-15

Let's look at Isaiah 21 in context..

Isaiah 21 New International Version (NIV)

A Prophecy Against Babylon
21 A prophecy against the Desert by the Sea:


Like whirlwinds sweeping through the southland,
an invader comes from the desert,
from a land of terror.
2 A dire vision has been shown to me:
The traitor betrays, the looter takes loot.
Elam, attack! Media, lay siege!
I will bring to an end all the groaning she caused.
3 At this my body is racked with pain,
pangs seize me, like those of a woman in labor;
I am staggered by what I hear,
I am bewildered by what I see.
4 My heart falters,
fear makes me tremble;
the twilight I longed for
has become a horror to me.
5 They set the tables,
they spread the rugs,
they eat, they drink!
Get up, you officers,
oil the shields!
6 This is what the Lord says to me:


“Go, post a lookout
and have him report what he sees.
7 When he sees chariots
with teams of horses,
riders on donkeys
or riders on camels,
let him be alert,
fully alert.”
8 And the lookout shouted,


“Day after day, my lord, I stand on the watchtower;
every night I stay at my post.
9 Look, here comes a man in a chariot
with a team of horses.
And he gives back the answer:
‘Babylon has fallen, has fallen!
All the images of its gods
lie shattered on the ground!’”
10 My people who are crushed on the threshing floor,
I tell you what I have heard
from the Lord Almighty,
from the God of Israel.
A Prophecy Against Edom
11 A prophecy against Dumah:


Someone calls to me from Seir,
“Watchman, what is left of the night?
Watchman, what is left of the night?”
12 The watchman replies,
“Morning is coming, but also the night.
If you would ask, then ask;
and come back yet again.”
A Prophecy Against Arabia
13 A prophecy against Arabia:


You caravans of Dedanites,
who camp in the thickets of Arabia,
14 bring water for the thirsty;
you who live in Tema,
bring food for the fugitives.
15 They flee from the sword,
from the drawn sword,
from the bent bow
and from the heat of battle.
16 This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.


You say..... ~ this describes the hijra to medina which is in the wider area of tema ~ if you look at the context.. It means no such thing. Isaiah 21 is a prophecy of doom on Babylon, Edom, Arabia, among others. There are no Messianic prophecies found here. This was prophesied about 700 BC history shows that Babylon was conquered in 539 BC.. It goes on to show that Northern Arabia and Kedar were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar.. Around 600 BC. So this prophecy of Gods judgement against various nations was fulfilled long before the birth of Mohammed. I don't see how you can believe this is a prophecy referring to the Hijra to medina simply based loosely on some geographical location.

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20

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"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation

Genesis 17: 20

Again Biblical context does not show Ishmael was the child of promise.. It was always Isaac. The Quran does not name Ishmael or Isaac.. Muslim scholars have arrived at the fact it was Ishmael based on ??? Wishful thinking?? I really don't know what you base this understanding on. Without doubt Genesis 17:20 does indeed promise that God blessed Ishmael and made him a great nation.. You will get no argument from me on that at all. However.. A blessing is what is is.. It does NOT at any time promise a prophet will arise from his line. The prophets were always promised through Isaac.

Peace unto you

[pandora]

Quote

Huria, God bless and keep you. I see no benefit to either party in continuing repetition of the same points.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)




14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

I wish you week on your chosen path and pray God guides you to His truth.

Peace unto you.

I do so wish I was allowed to edit my posts for errors... That should read .. I wish you well on your chosen path..

Peace and blessings.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

The prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus

I think this itself deserves a whole seperate post by itself because if it is true then christianity has no claim anymore!!!!!

[pandora]

Quote

I think this itself deserves a whole seperate post by itself because if it is true then christianity has no claim anymore!!!!!

PROPHET: (Luke 24:19) And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:


(Acts 3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

http://bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/

We obviously see the term prophet differently. That's why I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet... He does not fit the remit.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

You you raise a great many points and to simplify things I choose to address a few at a time... I hope that is agreeable to yourself. Firstly, I feel there has been enough said already on the matter of wholesale corruption of the Torah by the Jews, and no real evidence has been forth coming so I see no point going over old ground... Again.




The prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus .. NOT Mohammed. It cannot be Mohammed for numerous reasons.. Most of which I'm sure you have heard before. If you are using the Bible for your source here you have to take it in the context meant and not what you wish it to be. The context of "brethren" was only used for the Israelites.. [/FONT][/COLOR]The only non-Israelite people to be called brethren .. are the Edomites. Esau was Jacob's brother. Jacob was the father of the Israelites. That's as far back as the term "brethren" goes. Esau was a descendant of Issac, not Ishmael. Since the promise to the descendants was named through Isaac, on that basis it is understandable for Esau's descendants to be considered "brethren" to the Israelites. I think you would agree Mohammed was not an Israelite. No prophet was promised from the line of Ishmael.
*Like unto thee... * means like Moses... In what way do you believe Mohammed was like Moses?

*and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.* God spoke directly with Moses as also with Jesus. Prophet Mohammed claimed to receive his revelation from a Spirit.. An angel.

Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." John 5:46

Moses did write about Jesus. Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold.

Both Moses and Jesus authored a Covenant... Prophet Mohammed did not.



Let's look at Isaiah 21 in context..

Isaiah 21 New International Version (NIV)

A Prophecy Against Babylon
21 A prophecy against the Desert by the Sea:


Like whirlwinds sweeping through the southland,
an invader comes from the desert,
from a land of terror.
2 A dire vision has been shown to me:
The traitor betrays, the looter takes loot.
Elam, attack! Media, lay siege!
I will bring to an end all the groaning she caused.
3 At this my body is racked with pain,
pangs seize me, like those of a woman in labor;
I am staggered by what I hear,
I am bewildered by what I see.
4 My heart falters,
fear makes me tremble;
the twilight I longed for
has become a horror to me.
5 They set the tables,
they spread the rugs,
they eat, they drink!
Get up, you officers,
oil the shields!
6 This is what the Lord says to me:


“Go, post a lookout
and have him report what he sees.
7 When he sees chariots
with teams of horses,
riders on donkeys
or riders on camels,
let him be alert,
fully alert.”
8 And the lookout shouted,


“Day after day, my lord, I stand on the watchtower;
every night I stay at my post.
9 Look, here comes a man in a chariot
with a team of horses.
And he gives back the answer:
‘Babylon has fallen, has fallen!
All the images of its gods
lie shattered on the ground!’”
10 My people who are crushed on the threshing floor,
I tell you what I have heard
from the Lord Almighty,
from the God of Israel.
A Prophecy Against Edom
11 A prophecy against Dumah:


Someone calls to me from Seir,
“Watchman, what is left of the night?
Watchman, what is left of the night?”
12 The watchman replies,
“Morning is coming, but also the night.
If you would ask, then ask;
and come back yet again.”
A Prophecy Against Arabia
13 A prophecy against Arabia:


You caravans of Dedanites,
who camp in the thickets of Arabia,
14 bring water for the thirsty;
you who live in Tema,
bring food for the fugitives.
15 They flee from the sword,
from the drawn sword,
from the bent bow
and from the heat of battle.
16 This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.


You say..... ~ this describes the hijra to medina which is in the wider area of tema ~ if you look at the context.. It means no such thing. Isaiah 21 is a prophecy of doom on Babylon, Edom, Arabia, among others. There are no Messianic prophecies found here. This was prophesied about 700 BC history shows that Babylon was conquered in 539 BC.. It goes on to show that Northern Arabia and Kedar were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar.. Around 600 BC. So this prophecy of Gods judgement against various nations was fulfilled long before the birth of Mohammed. I don't see how you can believe this is a prophecy referring to the Hijra to medina simply based loosely on some geographical location.





Again Biblical context does not show Ishmael was the child of promise.. It was always Isaac. The Quran does not name Ishmael or Isaac.. Muslim scholars have arrived at the fact it was Ishmael based on ??? Wishful thinking?? I really don't know what you base this understanding on. Without doubt Genesis 17:20 does indeed promise that God blessed Ishmael and made him a great nation.. You will get no argument from me on that at all. However.. A blessing is what is is.. It does NOT at any time promise a prophet will arise from his line. The prophets were always promised through Isaac.

Peace unto you

First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren
You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
1. They both came with a law
2. They both migrated from their homeland
3. They both were revealed to in a cave
4. They waged wars
5. They both ruled their people
6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
7. They both married and had children
8. They both were revealed to at an old age
9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory

God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


If jesus was a prophet as WE claim then trinity is destroyed , however Moses as muslims we belive he did write about jesus but apparantly not in the current so called Torah , Jesus in this case is not similar to moses especially for the fact that jesus according to your belief made the law a curse (as paul Said) and that the law is not required of gentiles!!!!

AS I said this passage refers to the ishmaelites as god stated in genesis:
Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

A great nation as defined by the bible:
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Same term nation which are ishmaelites

Again I state other incients where the jews and the crowd in jerusalim were talking about the prophet or the messiah two awaited characters:
John, chapter 7:”
40 Some in the crowd who heard these words said, "This is truly the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Messiah." But others said, "The Messiah will not come from Galilee, will he?

John, chapter 1:”
19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "I am not the Messiah."
21 So they asked him, "What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No." “




Why would the jews make that distiction between the charecter of the messiah and a certain awaited prophet???


Second the context of the passage describes three prophecies :
1. against babylon
2. against edom
3. against Arabia

However a closer look shows multiple prophecies about jesus and muhammed peace be upon them , the context does not actually say a prophecy against babylon , rather a prophecy against the desert by the sea , This whole passage is reffering to multiple prophecies at multiple times . All christians belive that :
"And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .." (Isaiah 21:7)

The chariot of asses refers to : "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

If so this would make the chariot of camels riders as prophet muhammed

As for the description of Babylon :
And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." (Isaiah 21:9)

The fall of babylon refers to its idols or the idol worshipping , you can't argue with me on this since most prophcies in the book of revelation about babylon also is retorical , the text also from its context is clearly reffering to idol worship

Also it is important to note that in the king james version it is not a prophecy against Arabia rather a Burdon on Arabia:

The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

Isaiah 21: 13

The case about genesis and the covinant I already mentioned above

You still have not answered about other prophecies including the name of the prophet in the OT
Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

PROPHET: (Luke 24:19) And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:


(Acts 3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

http://bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/

We obviously see the term prophet differently. That's why I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet... He does not fit the remit.

All prophets are mighty in deeds and word or else they would not be prophets .

The book of acts does not have an actual author known , it has been suggested that it was wrote down by Iranaeus. However christian tradition holds that it was written by a man named luke (not the same luke of the gospel) who accompanied paul and was his student. If this is true it does not matter since according to you this was paul's interpriation not jesus and paul never companied jesus. Plus we muslims have an extremely negative view of Paul

[huria]

Quote

and pray God guides you to His truth.

Peace unto you.

Amen Pandora, I pray that God guide me to his truth, and I pray for you that God guide you to his truth.

Pandora in the day of judgement God will know who prayed sincerely to be guided to the truth and did not follow his own desires, and who ignored the guidance. I bear witness that we gave you the message, and many times I felt that you were avoiding answering important questions, and diverting topics, etc whatever was your intention God knows it. I wish you well on God’s way, and I pray that he guide you.

I hope you do not end up one of the losers on the day of judgement.

"Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in respect of their works? It will be those whose effort went astray in the life of the world and who believe nevertheless that they are doing good. Those are the ones who refused to believe in the revelations of their Lord and that they are bound to meet Him. Hence, all their deeds have come to naught, and We shall assign no weight to them on the Day of Resurrection “ Quran 18: 103-105

peace be upon those who follow the guidance

[pandora]

Quote

Amen Pandora, I pray that God guide me to his truth, and I pray for you that God guide you to his truth.

Pandora in the day of judgement God will know who prayed sincerely to be guided to the truth and did not follow his own desires, and who ignored the guidance. I bear witness that we gave you the message, and many times I felt that you were avoiding answering important questions, and diverting topics, etc whatever was your intention God knows it. I wish you well on God’s way, and I pray that he guide you.

I hope you do not end up one of the losers on the day of judgement.

"Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in respect of their works? It will be those whose effort went astray in the life of the world and who believe nevertheless that they are doing good. Those are the ones who refused to believe in the revelations of their Lord and that they are bound to meet Him. Hence, all their deeds have come to naught, and We shall assign no weight to them on the Day of Resurrection “ Quran 18: 103-105

peace be upon those who follow the guidance

Huria, please what important questions did you feel I avoided? And what topics did I divert? Yes... God does know my intention, because God guides my every waking hour of every day. It is to honour His Word and tell His truth... And dispel misconceptions that some have thereof. It does not matter to me or impact in any way on my person weather you chose to read them or may them any heed.

You have not persuaded me to see Islam as truth... The way to do this is not by attempting to destroy my faith, or prove Gods word in the Bible false... Or even by personal insult and ridicule. You would have to prove to me that Jesus was a liar... And He did not mean the things He said. Don't confuse the issue with Isa.. I mean Jesus.. The biblical Jesus. Is it possible for Jesus who is regarded as sinless... Even the Quran attests to His noble and truthful character.. To deceive His followers? I think not.

I have been on this forum quite a time now, and have been fortunate to have a dialogue with many different muslims. At times it has been a rewarding and beneficial experience... I hope mutually beneficial. When there has been a cordial exchange of views and possible misconceptions have been cleared up. Of course for that to occur we have to listen to each other... And respect our differences. Sometimes muslims would do well to listen to a Christian about what they actually believe.. Not what you think they believe.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren
You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
1. They both came with a law
2. They both migrated from their homeland
3. They both were revealed to in a cave
4. They waged wars
5. They both ruled their people
6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
7. They both married and had children
8. They both were revealed to at an old age
9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory

God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


If jesus was a prophet as WE claim then trinity is destroyed , however Moses as muslims we belive he did write about jesus but apparantly not in the current so called Torah , Jesus in this case is not similar to moses especially for the fact that jesus according to your belief made the law a curse (as paul Said) and that the law is not required of gentiles!!!!

AS I said this passage refers to the ishmaelites as god stated in genesis:
Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

A great nation as defined by the bible:
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Same term nation which are ishmaelites

Again I state other incients where the jews and the crowd in jerusalim were talking about the prophet or the messiah two awaited characters:
John, chapter 7:”
40 Some in the crowd who heard these words said, "This is truly the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Messiah." But others said, "The Messiah will not come from Galilee, will he?

John, chapter 1:”
19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "I am not the Messiah."
21 So they asked him, "What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No." “




Why would the jews make that distiction between the charecter of the messiah and a certain awaited prophet???


Second the context of the passage describes three prophecies :
1. against babylon
2. against edom
3. against Arabia

However a closer look shows multiple prophecies about jesus and muhammed peace be upon them , the context does not actually say a prophecy against babylon , rather a prophecy against the desert by the sea , This whole passage is reffering to multiple prophecies at multiple times . All christians belive that :
"And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .." (Isaiah 21:7)

The chariot of asses refers to : "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

If so this would make the chariot of camels riders as prophet muhammed

As for the description of Babylon :
And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." (Isaiah 21:9)

The fall of babylon refers to its idols or the idol worshipping , you can't argue with me on this since most prophcies in the book of revelation about babylon also is retorical , the text also from its context is clearly reffering to idol worship

Also it is important to note that in the king james version it is not a prophecy against Arabia rather a Burdon on Arabia:

The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

Isaiah 21: 13

The case about genesis and the covinant I already mentioned above

You still have not answered about other prophecies including the name of the prophet in the OT
Peace

​This was my last response