Love for the Prophet is a Condition of Faith

[pandora]

Quote

Wooo , hold it there . I did say that it doesn't mean gay acts . We just use it when someone thinks dirty and fabricates such things abut Islam . I mean that when someone like Butros - you can't see the video I guess - looks at a narration of the prophet peace upon him hugging a man and says it's "gay" , that's when we show him this so that he backs off . Of course it doesn't mean what we're talking about , it's just that he's using double standards .

am I to understand here that if someone you don't like, says something you don't agree with you feel that "tit for tat you insult my prophet I'll insult yours" kind of response is justified, even if it means using something defamatory and something you do not believe to be true! Don't you think that's a wee bit immature?

Quote

And by the way , some translations say that the man was sitting "next" to him . So you should probably call those translators dirty minded for their twisted way of understanding .

What are you on about???? What do you mean by "twisted understanding"? Do you see it as wrong for men to hug each other? Do you see it as shameful that a disciple laid his head on Jesus breast/chest in what was probably a moment of extreme emotion. Is there no room for love at all in Islam that you understand it so little?
A question for you.. If you saw a stranger who was terribly upset and distraught would you stop and comfort them or walk on by?

Quote

You declare me destined to hell for more than that in your belief . So much for the love , don't you think ? Still though , indeed , we will see at the day all are judged .

No.. Friend.. I would never declare you would go to hell. It's not my wish for anyone to suffer hell. However, I feel I fail in my Christian duty if I do not tell what I believe Jesus said was truth, that He is the only Way, He is the Truth and He is the Life. You have rejected Him, and it's ok for you to reject Him but I see it is important to know what it is you reject. I don't feel that as a Muslim you really know enough about what Jesus said and taught, and you blindly reject what could be something crucial to your redemption. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened.

Quote

That's YOUR belief . Are you going to do the same as Burnlight and try to force it on ours ?

No.. There is no force. Not any person can force another in matters of faith. I have looked carefully into other religions Christianity is the only one that comes close to offering what I need for my spiritual well being in this world and the next. Accepting Jesus has opened a new world to me, a world filled with blessings, love and joy to the extent I would shout it from the roof tops.. :) I just want everyone to know the same. You may get that in Islam.. Then that's ok... There is no compulsion here.. That we disagree I don't see as a barrier to dialogue.

Quote

Since you admit there is no "biological" connection , how come he's "Son of God" ? And how come God is his "Father" ? Allah says in his noble book :



And that's it for us . And if we're going to call him son of God because he's been created with his will , we should call every living creature so . Also , what signs do you mean when you say they "misrepresent" the Christian belief ? Did you actually read them carefully or see explanations for them (Which can be found on the internet !) ?

Because God said He was and Jesus said He was. By biological I was meaning the implied act of procreation in human terms. If you take that a child inherits DNA from both it's parents which forms it's being, nature and characteristics then the two involved in the creation of Jesus were God and Mary. Jesus existed with God from eternity as Gods Word.. As Gods eternal and uncreated Word Jesus shared essence with God it's neither unbecoming or unfitting for God to incarnate His Word into flesh if He so willed it. The Bible recognises the fact that nothing is impossible with God and we know God exists outside our sphere of understanding and we know there is nothing like God. We do not put restrictions upon God.

Quote

Fair enough .

Ok then, :)

Quote

We don't worship the same deity . Allah calls Isa peace upon him the son of Mary . Since it's offensive to you , just ask , and we won't refer to him in such manner . Simple isn't it ?!

Well! I always thought we did .. and muslims worshipped the same God as the Prophets knew and worshipped .. Which is YHWH. I assumed Allah was the Arabic name for YHWH/God. So really I'm not sure who you are worshipping when you say things like that.. And underline for emphasis. You must act according to your faith.. I simply answered a query asked of me why Christians would never use this title for Jesus. It being a personal affront to my person I can live with.

Quote

Wait what ? So Christians don't believe he talked in cradle ? Or did I misunderstand you ? Seriously , I'm asking sincerly here . Anyway , you said it , each have their belief . Discussing which belief is true is another thing .

No we do not believe that Jesus talked in the cradle or that He created life from clay birds. These accounts were first found in Christian folk tales attributed to people who lived far too late to have any connection with Jesus at all. Which is why they lack provenance. It's a bit like muslims using the "Gospel of Barnabas" an claiming it as a true account.. History has shown that to be a forgery believed to be from the Middle Ages. In fact I don't believe muslims would use it now. Although the "infancy Gospel of Thomas" is not as late as that it is still considered to be too late to be taken as a true account. You believe it as you will.. I just state why Christians don't accept it..

Quote

Repeating again , if it's offensive , just ask , and we won't use the term while talking with you .

Quote

Don't worry about it.. It's obvious you do not wilfully intend offence. You are acting according to your faith dictates. As you say we have different opinions. Jesus was called worse I'm sure in His lifetime.. He taught to turn the other cheek and always forgive. So that's what I do.. :)

peace ce upon you.

[نصير الدين]

Quote

am I to understand here that if someone you don't like, says something you don't agree with you feel that "tit for tat you insult my prophet I'll insult yours" kind of response is justified, even if it means using something defamatory and something you do not believe to be true! Don't you think that's a wee bit immature?

You're minsunderstanding . I don't mean I'll say "Your religion is "censor" since you insult my religion" . It's just to make such people with dirty minds back off . The conversation would be something like :

"You falsely allegated gay activity to our religion with a narration you misrepresent . Still , with that mentality , you'll probably think the same with that certain verse in your own book . Of course , there's nothing wrong with either but the problem lies in you"

Quote

What are you on about???? What do you mean by "twisted understanding"? Do you see it as wrong for men to hug each other? Do you see it as shameful that a disciple laid his head on Jesus breast/chest in what was probably a moment of extreme emotion. Is there no room for love at all in Islam that you understand it so little?

Dear lord ! You're completely misunderstanding me ! Of course there is nothing wrong with hugging a person or resting one's head on the other's chest . And the opinion of those who think this is a sign of weakness isn't worth a penny . What I'm saying is that if the translators of some of those translations changed the thing from "on his chest" to "next to him" because they had such twisted understandings , you should be blaming them .

So , am I clear ? I'm not saying that verse is hinting at gay activities in any way . In fact , the first time I mentioned it was to deny it ! I thought that sister Shama'il brough it up because she meant this but maybe I misunderstood her as well .

Quote

A question for you.. If you saw a stranger who was terribly upset and distraught would you stop and comfort them or walk on by?

I would try to do what I can to comfort him . Personally though , hugging him would be awkward because he's a stranger :/ .

Quote

No.. Friend.. I would never declare you would go to hell. It's not my wish for anyone to suffer hell. However, I feel I fail in my Christian duty if I do not tell what I believe Jesus said was truth, that He is the only Way, He is the Truth and He is the Life. You have rejected Him, and it's ok for you to reject Him but I see it is important to know what it is you reject. I don't feel that as a Muslim you really know enough about what Jesus said and taught, and you blindly reject what could be something crucial to your redemption. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened.

I say that Islam teaches us any virtue taught by the prophets through history . So what is it that Christ peace upon him taught according to your belief ?

Quote

Because God said He was and Jesus said He was. By biological I was meaning the implied act of procreation in human terms. If you take that a child inherits DNA from both it's parents which forms it's being, nature and characteristics then the two involved in the creation of Jesus were God and Mary. Jesus existed with God from eternity as Gods Word.. As Gods eternal and uncreated Word Jesus shared essence with God it's neither unbecoming or unfitting for God to incarnate His Word into flesh if He so willed it. The Bible recognises the fact that nothing is impossible with God and we know God exists outside our sphere of understanding and we know there is nothing like God. We do not put restrictions upon God.

Nice , that's your belief . Ours differ though .

Quote

Well! I always thought we did .. and muslims worshipped the same God as the Prophets knew and worshipped .. Which is YHWH. I assumed Allah was the Arabic name for YHWH/God. So really I'm not sure who you are worshipping when you say things like that.. And underline for emphasis. You must act according to your faith.. I simply answered a query asked of me why Christians would never use this title for Jesus. It being a personal affront to my person I can live with.

You do realize that we don't believe God is 3 in one right ? Or that he has a son ? And the charecteristics differ between Islam and Christianity . About the undelined though , fair enough .

Quote

No we do not believe that Jesus talked in the cradle or that He created life from clay birds. These accounts were first found in Christian folk tales attributed to people who lived far too late to have any connection with Jesus at all. Which is why they lack provenance. It's a bit like muslims using the "Gospel of Barnabas" an claiming it as a true account.. History has shown that to be a forgery believed to be from the Middle Ages. In fact I don't believe muslims would use it now. Although the "infancy Gospel of Thomas" is not as late as that it is still considered to be too late to be taken as a true account. You believe it as you will.. I just state why Christians don't accept it..

Gospel of what ?! Anyway , our source of saying he spoke in cradle and made birds of clay alive is not such historical text whatsoever . It's the noble Quran itself . And when we believe through evidence that Islam is true , we believe in what it says . So either the records of him talking as an infant were lost for a long time or that they were hidden as Quran states in Islamic belief .

[pandora]

Quote

You're minsunderstanding . I don't mean I'll say "Your religion is "censor" since you insult my religion" . It's just to make such people with dirty minds back off . The conversation would be something like :

"You falsely allegated gay activity to our religion with a narration you misrepresent . Still , with that mentality , you'll probably think the same with that certain verse in your own book . Of course , there's nothing wrong with either but the problem lies in you"

ever heard the saying two wrongs don't make a right? Besides in this thread never I did, never have and don't intend to cast aspersions and insults upon your religion. So there's no need to bring any insults (intentional or not) into the equation.

Quote

Dear lord ! You're completely misunderstanding me ! Of course there is nothing wrong with hugging a person or resting one's head on the other's chest . And the opinion of those who think this is a sign of weakness isn't worth a penny . What I'm saying is that if the translators of some of those translations changed the thing from "on his chest" to "next to him" because they had such twisted understandings , you should be blaming them .

hang on a minute... If you're going to bring in a straw man into the argument please introduce him first!!! The issue was never translators changing "on His Chest" to "next to Him".. Because that is not an issue in any way for Christians. The point was.. If indeed there was a point worthy of note.. That the sister chose that verse "possibly" implying improper conduct.. As dearest has not been back to clear up the issue of what she meant by using the verse.. It's what you might say water under the bridge now. Time to draw that line in the sand and move on. ;)

Quote

So , am I clear ? I'm not saying that verse is hinting at gay activities in any way . In fact , the first time I mentioned it was to deny it ! I thought that sister Shama'il brough it up because she meant this but maybe I misunderstood her as well .

Good pleased to hear that. Because any ideas of "gay activities" says more about the person making such an allegation .. Shama'il.. The sisters name? Would it be considered impolite if I used this name.. Instead of dearest or dear? Maybe the sister dear heart could let me know ..:)

Quote

I would try to do what I can to comfort him . Personally though , hugging him would be awkward because he's a stranger :/ .

Honestly.. I recommend you try if you ever find yourself in this situation. Because today's stranger could be tomorrow's friend.. And everyone needs a hug at times. :)

Quote

I say that Islam teaches us any virtue taught by the prophets through history . So what is it that Christ peace upon him taught according to your belief ?

In a nutshell... Jesus taught us about love and forgiveness. He taught us not to judge others. Jesus taught us to give to the poor and to be careful not to let wealth become too important. Jesus taught us to be genuine and not hypocritical, to pray and to have faith. Finally, Jesus taught us to follow Him and to place our faith and trust in Him.

Quote

Nice , that's your belief . Ours differ though .

Yep.. It does. Time will tell.. That's another saying.. You may have heard off. :)

Quote

You do realize that we don't believe God is 3 in one right ? Or that he has a son ? And the charecteristics differ between Islam and Christianity . About the undelined though , fair enough .

Yep.. I do realise that the concept of the trinity is a big no no for muslims. About the God having a Son. Whenever muslims say this it makes me feel uneasy, because I can't help but think that you see this whole son thing in a literal sense. I hope I am wrong in this assumption.. Because the alternative is blasphemy and you can imagine that is wrong on every level.

Quote

Gospel of what ?! Anyway , our source of saying he spoke in cradle and made birds of clay alive is not such historical text whatsoever . It's the noble Quran itself . And when we believe through evidence that Islam is true , we believe in what it says . So either the records of him talking as an infant were lost for a long time or that they were hidden as Quran states in Islamic belief .

Gospel of Thomas the Israelite.. Also called the infancy Gospel. The accounts are uncannily similar. They were not lost or hidden but in the sixth century were in wide circulation. This is your belief in Islam and of course you will take the Quran as authoritative on such matter. I would not expect otherwise. However, when I see evidence of an account in another source which is almost identical it raises questions for me.

peace be upon you.

[نصير الدين]

Quote

ever heard the saying two wrongs don't make a right? Besides in this thread never I did, never have and don't intend to cast aspersions and insults upon your religion. So there's no need to bring any insults (intentional or not) into the equation.

And where did I insult you in this ? The point is that it would be a situation of "Pot calling kettle black" . Except of course , none of the two hint at it at all .

Quote

hang on a minute... If you're going to bring in a straw man into the argument please introduce him first!!! The issue was never translators changing "on His Chest" to "next to Him".. Because that is not an issue in any way for Christians. The point was.. If indeed there was a point worthy of note.. That the sister chose that verse "possibly" implying improper conduct.. As dearest has not been back to clear up the issue of what she meant by using the verse.. It's what you might say water under the bridge now. Time to draw that line in the sand and move on. ;)

Alright , let's forget about the translators as it was a mistake of me to bring them up while they're unrelated .

Quote

Shama'il.. The sisters name?

شمائل

Roughly written in English as "Shamaa'il" . The sound of the second "a" is long and after it you stop for a moment and then give the sound of an "i" . It means good charecteristics ..... I think :/ .

Quote

Honestly.. I recommend you try if you ever find yourself in this situation. Because today's stranger could be tomorrow's friend.. And everyone needs a hug at times. :)

Advice taken .

Quote

In a nutshell... Jesus taught us about love and forgiveness. He taught us not to judge others. Jesus taught us to give to the poor and to be careful not to let wealth become too important. Jesus taught us to be genuine and not hypocritical, to pray and to have faith. Finally, Jesus taught us to follow Him and to place our faith and trust in Him.

Alright , Islam taught us to forgive as well but not in any and all situations . It is a fact that there are evil ones who don't hesitate to do evil things . That's where it is necessary to stop them with force . This is a related sign :

Quote

4:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

And truely , we don't ultimately judge others as to say "This one goes to heaven and this one goes to hell" . But we do state what's right or wrong . For example , I may not call someone who drink alcohol evil but I do state that it's a bad thing and harmful to health . And there are clearly ones we can call "evil" by default . Those who commit hideous crimes and history is full of them . World War 2 is an example .

Also , "Zakat" is a pillar of Islam . With any of the pillars lost , one's Islam is incomplete . To be quick , "Zakah or Zakat" is mandatory for everyone capable of it and it's given yearly to the poor and needing . It has conditions and judgements for different situations and so . The other one is called "Sadaqah" . And while it's not mandatory , it is encouraged and can be given at any time . That's why I see such things which make me happy :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3630830.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5193093.html

Wealth isn't wrong in itself of course , but one most control it and be controlled with it . We are taught that as well .

When it comes to hypocricy , do you know that hypocrites in religion are in the deepest levels of hell ?

Quote

4:145 Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will you find for them a helper -

And hypocricy in anything is bigoted as well . Lying is among the great sins called "Kabaa'ir" (Singular is "Kabiirah") .

As for trust and believe , we believe in Allah and what he sent his prophets and messengers with .

Quote

Yep.. I do realise that the concept of the trinity is a big no no for muslims. About the God having a Son. Whenever muslims say this it makes me feel uneasy, because I can't help but think that you see this whole son thing in a literal sense. I hope I am wrong in this assumption.. Because the alternative is blasphemy and you can imagine that is wrong on every level.

Literal and illiteral are both wrong for us .

Quote

Gospel of Thomas the Israelite.. Also called the infancy Gospel. The accounts are uncannily similar. They were not lost or hidden but in the sixth century were in wide circulation. This is your belief in Islam and of course you will take the Quran as authoritative on such matter. I would not expect otherwise. However, when I see evidence of an account in another source which is almost identical it raises questions for me.

PLEASE don't bring uo the claim of "Prophet Muhammad - peace upon him - took things from Christianity , Judaism , Hinduism , etc" because since we have records of his life - in details after prophecy - and since we all know he couldn't read or write his own language - let alone other languages - and he never left the Arabian pensuila and the pagans would have noticed if he was taking things from someone , I say , since all of that is a fact , claiming he took things from other religions would be - no offense - ridiculous .

[pandora]

[QUOTE=نصير الدين;598294]

And where did I insult you in this ? The point is that it would be a situation of "Pot calling kettle black" . Except of course , none of the two hint at it at all .[Quote]

I did not say you insulted me personally... It was you and the sister dear heart who brought insults against Lord Jesus (implied improper behaviour) by using a Bible verse in an inflammatory manner. Really, it's gone now. I am prepared to see you did not realise it was offensive. Besides.. Personal insults I can rise above, they mean nothing to me. :)

Quote

Alright , let's forget about the translators as it was a mistake of me to bring them up while they're unrelated .

Good idea... :)

شمائل

Quote

Roughly written in English as "Shamaa'il" . The sound of the second "a" is long and after it you stop for a moment and then give the sound of an "i" . It means good charecteristics ..... I think :/ .

Nice user name. However until Sister dear heart gives me permission to refer to her by her user name I shall refrain from doing so. Do you have a "roughly written English" equivalent user name? And would you object if I referred to you by it.. If you wished to share it of course.

Quote

Advice taken .

Good.. Here's a virtual hug from a stranger.. (((( hug ))))

Quote

Alright , Islam taught us to forgive as well but not in any and all situations . It is a fact that there are evil ones who don't hesitate to do evil things . That's where it is necessary to stop them with force . This is a related sign :

Jesus said we were to forgive our enemies. I always feel it a shame when some Christians fail to do live up to this demand. It's is the hardest thing but I have found ultimately the most rewarding. I can see the value in this command upon us.. Because retaliation only ever escalates and revenge is always destructive.. You only have to look at the world today to see what destruction revenge causes. It comes down to love again!!! ;)

~ ~ ~ 9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.


14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.


17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:


“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. ~ ~ ~

Another saying.. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.. Don't know if you have heard of it..

Quote

And truely , we don't ultimately judge others as to say "This one goes to heaven and this one goes to hell" . But we do state what's right or wrong . For example , I may not call someone who drink alcohol evil but I do state that it's a bad thing and harmful to health . And there are clearly ones we can call "evil" by default . Those who commit hideous crimes and history is full of them . World War 2 is an example .

I'm sure this stands for all religions. It's not our place to judge. However, for some people that is not so easy to achieve. I don't see anyone as being born inherently evil.. So don't agree with evil by default description here. We are shaped by many things in our life and a person can be attracted to evil. Once pure evil is allowed into a persons heart, that person is lost to its power and held in its sway. There are far more pertinent examples to choose than WW2... Evil is alive and well and flourishes in many parts of the world today. Another saying.. For evil to thrive all it takes is for good men to do nothing..

Quote

Also , "Zakat" is a pillar of Islam . With any of the pillars lost , one's Islam is incomplete . To be quick , "Zakah or Zakat" is mandatory for everyone capable of it and it's given yearly to the poor and needing . It has conditions and judgements for different situations and so . The other one is called "Sadaqah" . And while it's not mandatory , it is encouraged and can be given at any time . That's why I see such things which make me happy :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3630830.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5193093.html

charity should be second nature to every person.. It should not be an obligation but an intrinsic understanding of the need to care for those less fortunate than ourselves. I believe a society can be measured by how it treats it's weakest members.. If you fail these people then you fail all. However, if Zakat works then it's a good thing. Yet it has not addressed the issue of poverty in the 1400 years it's been in operation in Muslim societies though, so maybe the people are at fault not the system.

Quote

Wealth isn't wrong in itself of course , but one most control it and be controlled with it . We are taught that as well .

I agree it isn't wrong.. But I see excessive personal wealth can be. The world we live in operates on money.. Wealth.. Our lives are governed by it.. We either have too much or not enough or we always want more than we need. Yet we rarely stop to think for what purpose do we store wealth for the sake of having it? Unless we use our wealth to share with the community we live in then it benefits us nothing. We come into the world with nothing and we leave the world the same state.

Quote

When it comes to hypocricy , do you know that hypocrites in religion are in the deepest levels of hell ?



And hypocricy in anything is bigoted as well . Lying is among the great sins called "Kabaa'ir" (Singular is "Kabiirah") .

As for trust and believe , we believe in Allah and what he sent his prophets and messengers with .

The understanding of what constitutes a sin I should imagine is pretty much the same for all of us. I see the way we perceive sin and the affect it has upon us and in relation to God is different. I think this is important. I started a thread on this topic thinking to explore it further but no one was interested in pursuing it. No matter. :)

Quote

Literal and illiteral are both wrong for us .

Yes.. I see that. That's down to how we perceive God differently. Allah is unknowable and distant.. YHWH is knowable and close to us as family.

Quote

PLEASE don't bring uo the claim of "Prophet Muhammad - peace upon him - took things from Christianity , Judaism , Hinduism , etc" because since we have records of his life - in details after prophecy - and since we all know he couldn't read or write his own language - let alone other languages - and he never left the Arabian pensuila and the pagans would have noticed if he was taking things from someone , I say , since all of that is a fact , claiming he took things from other religions would be - no offense - ridiculous .

Quote

I have no wish to cause offence, so we will leave this subject here. It's your belief.

Peace upon you.

[نصير الدين]

Quote

Nice user name. However until Sister dear heart gives me permission to refer to her by her user name I shall refrain from doing so. Do you have a "roughly written English" equivalent user name? And would you object if I referred to you by it.. If you wished to share it of course.

Very well , we'll wait for her to tell . As for my name , it's pronounced "Nasiir Addiin"="Ally of Religion (Islam in this case)" . You can refer to me as Nasiir or Ally if you like .

Quote

Jesus said we were to forgive our enemies. I always feel it a shame when some Christians fail to do live up to this demand. It's is the hardest thing but I have found ultimately the most rewarding. I can see the value in this command upon us.. Because retaliation only ever escalates and revenge is always destructive.. You only have to look at the world today to see what destruction revenge causes. It comes down to love again!!! ;)

I feel it will go for a long time but still , I wouldn't be exagerraing if I say that Islam is the most forgiving religion there is , and at the same time , it's strict against evil doers . The Mongols invaded the Islamic lands until they reached Egypt and then were pushed back . What does that have to do with it ? Well , here's the surprise , they embraced the religion of the invaded , something I doubt happened at all in history . Islam teaches us to never assault a child , an old man , a woman , a worshiper , or a non fighting civillian in any case .

Still , things can indeed be black and white . There's a difference between forgiveness and letting someone step on your neck . Justice and truth need power . That's why there are many people around the world trying their hardest to fend the invaders off . If they don't , they either die or live miserably . I know that if we try to go into details we'll be doing it for a long time and so I'll keep it at this .

Quote

I don't see anyone as being born inherently evil.. So don't agree with evil by default description here.

Not BORN evil ! I mean that it's simple and easy to say some are evil when we look at theri acts . Of course I'm not saying a person is born evil !

Quote

There are far more pertinent examples to choose than WW2... Evil is alive and well and flourishes in many parts of the world today.

I have a feeling that we won't agree which side is the evil one . So let's set it aside for now .

Quote

Another saying.. For evil to thrive all it takes is for good men to do nothing..

And that's why it's a must for good men to stand up to it and stop it . And if it comes in force , it must be driven back by force . A sign was mentioned about this :

Quote

8:60 And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

And because I KNOW someone out there will try to misquote this , I'll explain . Terrifying isn't bad intsefl . It can be for the good or the bad . The cop for instance casts terror in the heart of the criminal when going after him .

Quote

charity should be second nature to every person.. It should not be an obligation but an intrinsic understanding of the need to care for those less fortunate than ourselves. I believe a society can be measured by how it treats it's weakest members.. If you fail these people then you fail all. However, if Zakat works then it's a good thing. Yet it has not addressed the issue of poverty in the 1400 years it's been in operation in Muslim societies though, so maybe the people are at fault not the system.

The charity you'r talking about is "Sadaqah" . The other one , the obligation , is because not everyone would help the poor . And in that case , they are obliged to because ultimately , all this wealth with the whole creation belongs to Allah . Thus , if someone is stingy or denying the poor and needy of that wealth , he is forced to give them . As for the underlined , that's a joke , right ? Because a prophecy has actually been fulfilled about it during the days of Umar bin Abdulaziz . The time to give Zakah comes , and they can't find anyone who needs it ! I'll try to look for the sources in English if you want them .Yes , it succeeded at times when the whole Islamic system is applied properly . There are off times and there are times when Sharia is refused completely and those are the darkest times . So in the end , yes , if it fails , it's the people that are at fault for not working with Islam in the first place .

Quote

I agree it isn't wrong.. But I see excessive personal wealth can be. The world we live in operates on money.. Wealth.. Our lives are governed by it.. We either have too much or not enough or we always want more than we need. Yet we rarely stop to think for what purpose do we store wealth for the sake of having it? Unless we use our wealth to share with the community we live in then it benefits us nothing. We come into the world with nothing and we leave the world the same state.

Well said . But did you actually know that the reason there are people suffering sever poverty is that there are who steal what their lands offer ? And they admit it too .



If the video doesn't show on the forum , try to look for "Global Wealth Inequal Distrubution and its causes"

Quote

The understanding of what constitutes a sin I should imagine is pretty much the same for all of us. I see the way we perceive sin and the affect it has upon us and in relation to God is different. I think this is important. I started a thread on this topic thinking to explore it further but no one was interested in pursuing it. No matter. :)

I'm not sure I fully understand you so let's leave it aside for now .

[pandora]

Quote

Very well , we'll wait for her to tell . As for my name , it's pronounced "Nasiir Addiin"="Ally of Religion (Islam in this case)" . You can refer to me as Nasiir or Ally if you like .

Thank you Nasiir. :)

Quote

I feel it will go for a long time but still , I wouldn't be exagerraing if I say that Islam is the most forgiving religion there is , and at the same time , it's strict against evil doers . The Mongols invaded the Islamic lands until they reached Egypt and then were pushed back . What does that have to do with it ? Well , here's the surprise , they embraced the religion of the invaded , something I doubt happened at all in history . Islam teaches us to never assault a child , an old man , a woman , a worshiper , or a non fighting civillian in any case .

Still , things can indeed be black and white . There's a difference between forgiveness and letting someone step on your neck . Justice and truth need power . That's why there are many people around the world trying their hardest to fend the invaders off . If they don't , they either die or live miserably . I know that if we try to go into details we'll be doing it for a long time and so I'll keep it at this .

I agree this subject of forgiveness and how it is understood in our respective religions could indeed go on for a long time and may be better for a topic for a separate thread for a different time. Suffice to say that both sides of this coin value forgiveness as an important aspect of faith. Though it would seem that a great many do not seem to grasp this so simple of concepts.

Quote

Not BORN evil ! I mean that it's simple and easy to say some are evil when we look at theri acts . Of course I'm not saying a person is born evil !

My bad.. I misunderstood your meaning. Whereas God can and does abhor the sin God loves the sinner. We would do well to attempt to emulate that and reflect it to those who sin against us. One of the lines in the prayer we start our day with is "forgive our trespasses as we will forgive those who trespass against us".

Quote

I have a feeling that we won't agree which side is the evil one . So let's set it aside for now .

There are no sides where evil deeds occur. Evil does not respect the person and any person whatever "side" they find themselves on if they open their heart to committing an evil act then evil is only to willing to oblige and make it easy for them. Making it easy for them to excuse it for the greater good... Or whatever. But before God there is no distinction.. One cannot commit an evil deed and pass it off for the greater good of society or humanity.. We answer for the deed.. End of.

Quote

And that's why it's a must for good men to stand up to it and stop it . And if it comes in force , it must be driven back by force . A sign was mentioned about this :

Not necessarily.. The pen is mightier than the sword. During the last World Wars there were men known as "conscientious objectors" they refused to fight in battle or kill another in the name of war... But would only serve their country by peaceful means. In the first WW many were shot as cowards, and although the 2nd WW, they may not have been shot but were still made to feel cowards. But who is the braver man? The one who takes the life of another in the theatre of war or the one that stands for what He believes is right according to his belief. God has destroyed cities and communities in His righteous wrath in the past times.. that is supreme justice. Jesus told us the meek shall inherit the earth... I sometimes wonder if people practiced forgiveness to the degree of Gods will and left the punishment of evil to Gods righteous wrath.. What would the world we live in be like?

Quote

And because I KNOW someone out there will try to misquote this , I'll explain . Terrifying isn't bad intsefl . It can be for the good or the bad . The cop for instance casts terror in the heart of the criminal when going after him .

I agree that people casting terror into the hearts of others is part and parcel of life in the modern world. For sure society needs laws to operate a safe environment for all it's members. But this world we live in is transitory and is a blink of an eye to what we face for eternity. We are judged on our life before we hope to enter the hereafter.. I have confidence that God is just, and where it may be possible for the guilty to go free by twisting and corrupting the law to their will, and the innocent do not always receive the justice they deserve.. That is by the hand of man in dealing with the law. The ultimate judge is God.. And He is the only judge that counts.

Quote

The charity you'r talking about is "Sadaqah" . The other one , the obligation , is because not everyone would help the poor . And in that case , they are obliged to because ultimately , all this wealth with the whole creation belongs to Allah . Thus , if someone is stingy or denying the poor and needy of that wealth , he is forced to give them . As for the underlined , that's a joke , right ? Because a prophecy has actually been fulfilled about it during the days of Umar bin Abdulaziz . The time to give Zakah comes , and they can't find anyone who needs it ! I'll try to look for the sources in English if you want them .Yes , it succeeded at times when the whole Islamic system is applied properly . There are off times and there are times when Sharia is refused completely and those are the darkest times . So in the end , yes , if it fails , it's the people that are at fault for not working with Islam in the first place .

No truly.. I was not making a joke. That it worked in the past is good.. What is bad is it can't be made to work in the world we live in today. That is down to the people.

Quote

Well said . But did you actually know that the reason there are people suffering sever poverty is that there are who steal what their lands offer ? And they admit it too .



If the video doesn't show on the forum , try to look for "Global Wealth Inequal Distrubution and its causes"

Truly I do not need to see a video on "Global Greed" and inequality of the same. I know it exists. To say its the force of all poverty is stretching a bit. But a valid point never the less. The buck has to stop somewhere.. However, like evil.. Greed is no respecter of person and weather it be on a global scale by huge conglomerates or individuals the result is the same. Someone somewhere.. Suffers the consequences.

Quote

I'm not sure I fully understand you so let's leave it aside for now .

Quote

I may explain further on the other thread I started..

peace upon you

[نصير الدين]

Quote

Not necessarily.. The pen is mightier than the sword. During the last World Wars there were men known as "conscientious objectors" they refused to fight in battle or kill another in the name of war... But would only serve their country by peaceful means. In the first WW many were shot as cowards, and although the 2nd WW, they may not have been shot but were still made to feel cowards. But who is the braver man?

Not necessarily . Many were killed even though they didn't fight . One must know that if truth leaves falsehood in peace , falsehood will never leave truth in peace . Many reasons can drive a person to evil , there is Iblees - Satan - and his allies and also the evil-ordering self (Annafs Al-Ammara Bissu') and they all ornament the evil deeds to a person to justify them . Thus , Quran tells us :

Quote

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
16:126 And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient - it is better for those who are patient.

Quote

The one who takes the life of another in the theatre of war or the one that stands for what He believes is right according to his belief.

If standing to one's belief - whichever it is - is right for you , you shouldn't blame us since it is our belief to fend off the oppressors and trespassers without trespassing .

Quote

God has destroyed cities and communities in His righteous wrath in the past times.. that is supreme justice.

Agreed , although the stories of such incidents differ between Christianity and Islam . Then why isn't it supreme justice when Allah orders us to , not destroy whole cities or nations , but fight against the evil doers and spread his message ? If that happened in the past , why shouldn't it happen now?

Quote

No truly.. I was not making a joke. That it worked in the past is good.. What is bad is it can't be made to work in the world we live in today. That is down to the people.

You do realize it isn't applied in the first place , don't you ?

Quote

I have confidence that God is just, and where it may be possible for the guilty to go free by twisting and corrupting the law to their will, and the innocent do not always receive the justice they deserve.. That is by the hand of man in dealing with the law. The ultimate judge is God.. And He is the only judge that counts.

Agreed . But to clear something about the last part , judging someone in this life - in Islam - is based on the judgement of the almighty himself . He set the laws for us because Islam is a way of life .

[Burninglight]

Quote

Agreed , although the stories of such incidents differ between Christianity and Islam . Then why isn't it supreme justice when Allah orders us to , not destroy whole cities or nations , but fight against the evil doers and spread his message ? If that happened in the past , why shouldn't it happen now?

Good question. I believe it is happening constantly and even more so in the spiritual realm. The Lord tells us the battle is His. We wage war not against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. it is against our own sinful desires as we yield to the Lord we are putting them to death. We are told to preach the word in season and out. We are told to rebuke and exhort with long suffering. It is not easy to obey the Lord because the world frowns on our message and the gospel. We are battling against attacks from atheists just like Muslims and the world hates us. We even lose battles with other religion in debate and the laws of the land are made against Christianity such as the removal of the ten commandments from our institutions. Wicked agendas like homosexuality/ gay marriage and they are trying take over our schools and military and many other such things. The media pushing worldly agendas of the new age. We lose battles but we are promised to be more than conquerors through Christ Jesus. Jesus came as a meek lamb, but when He comes back it will be as a roaring lion with a sword that protrudes from His mouth to put an end to gainsayers against the hope that is within us

Quote

Agreed . But to clear something about the last part , judging someone in this life - in Islam - is based on the judgement of the almighty himself . He set the laws for us because Islam is a way of life .

Christianity is a way of life as well, but we don't take matters into our own hands when in comes to punishing someone with death, life in prison or cutting off their hands and feet according to our interpretation of Scripture. It is appointed unto man to die once and after that comes the judgment. Christianity unlike Islam is not a government and religion mixture. We are to obey the laws of the land (government /cityand state) even when the wicked rule as long as their laws don't go against the laws of God.

I would, however, fight against any legislation to promote sharia, because IMO, it is handing us all a one way ticket back to the 7th century to where I know it will be a constant clash with Christianity. Christians don't believe sharia is of God. Christians don't believe in shedding blood to promote their faith according to the Bible. It states love your enemies and do good to those who abuse and insult you. So the only way Islam can take over Christianity for the most part is through bloodshed, but that makes the church stronger. We know that the spiritual battles will soon manifest into bloodshed, I plan on it happening soon; I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'll probably be martyred if I maintain the message I share now, but I have kept it all my life. Only God can show me if I am in the wrong; no man can convince me.

Peace and blessings
BL

[pandora]

Quote

Not necessarily . Many were killed even though they didn't fight . One must know that if truth leaves falsehood in peace , falsehood will never leave truth in peace . Many reasons can drive a person to evil , there is Iblees - Satan - and his allies and also the evil-ordering self (Annafs Al-Ammara Bissu') and they all ornament the evil deeds to a person to justify them . Thus , Quran tells us :

I think we're straying off track a bit here. War and conflict have been part of humanity for as long ... Well name a time span! Whereas I'm sure most conflicts start with noble intentions... At least from the perspective of one side at least... But.. It is an undeniable fact that conflicts usually escalate into wars and innocent people get killed. It's too much to ask to avoid conflict at all.. And go around forgiving our enemies, that would only work if everyone did the same. I can't see that happening any time soon. I think I said something similar.. satan dresses evil deeds up and deceives people into believing they are justified. Whereas, we should understand if evil is an anathema to God, then such justification will not be pleasing in His eyes,

Quote

If standing to one's belief - whichever it is - is right for you , you shouldn't blame us since it is our belief to fend off the oppressors and trespassers without trespassing .

That's fine for you... If you can always be sure if the "oppressors and trespassers" are that in fact and one does not simply attach a convenient label for expediencies sake.

Quote

Agreed , although the stories of such incidents differ between Christianity and Islam . Then why isn't it supreme justice when Allah orders us to , not destroy whole cities or nations , but fight against the evil doers and spread his message ? If that happened in the past , why shouldn't it happen now?

YHWH never commanded violence in order to promote His Biblical faith. Jesus never taught violence at all.. The violence prescribed by God in the Old Testament was intended for a particular time and limited to a particular people group. There was no precedent set to continue this practice beyond what God had commanded. In contrast there is very little violence called for in the New Testament we see this as fulfilment of the Old Testament as Gods righteous battles had been fought and won.. Then there was no need to call for further warfare. Yet.. We find the Quran goes back in time to the Old Testament battles... But now it's to spread the religion of Islam or to protect muslims from "unbelievers..?? Non muslims? How is Islam bringing enlightenment if it takes people back centuries? Is that progress?

Quote

Agreed . But to clear something about the last part , judging someone in this life - in Islam - is based on the judgement of the almighty himself . He set the laws for us because Islam is a way of life .

Quote

We see that our justice in place in societies .. Call them western.. If you like. :) is based on biblical law weather people realise it or not.. Thou shall not kill, steal etc. Islam does not have the monopoly on morals or perfect interpretations of the Law. In fact in many countries we see "law" bent to the will of the men with an agenda who dispense it. That of course is not the fault of the law itself but of the people who dispense it. Sadly, they are open to corruption and I don't see how that's can be stopped.. There will always be some who use the law to their own ends.

Blessings