Jesus A Prophet of GOD Muslims

[Burninglight]

Quote

With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .

Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?

Seriously, Jesus turning water to wine served a purpose. They ran out of wine at the marriage feast in Canaan. Walking on water served a purpose as well; He had somewhere to go. But what's the purpose of Muhammad splitting the moon or Jesus talking in the cradle or creating life from a clay or wooden bird when He had already created all life forms?

[نصير الدين]

Quote

This sounds as if you do not fully understand the meaning of this miracle, because you have never been told there was a definitive reason for it. The biblical miracles by some of the prophets and Jesus always had a message to convey. Miracles were a special gift from God, they were not given on a whim but only to convey something of importance. They had to in some way benefit mankind.

And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?

Quote

This for me at least is a far more satisfying account of the importance of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel announcing the birth negates the necessity for Jesus as a baby talking from his cradle. This I believe is the same Angel that brought revelation to Prophet Mohammed. You may wonder why Gabriel told a different story... Seeing as the same account or very similar was already in circulation. I know it make me wonder.

And to me , the noble Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him - which are also revelations from Allah - are enough . Also , just because we don't know the reason for him talking in cradle aside from the innocence of lady Mary doesn't mean there isn't . Not to mention that we shouldn't be ashamed if it was the only reason . People could have denied that he's her child or that he was born of no father or anything else . Jews knew about teh coming of Christ and it's recorded in theri books - Islam says so too - and yet they denied that it was him and accused him of things and they're still waiting for the "real Christ" which is in Islam the false Christ (Dajjal) . That's what the ones of falseehood always do . Also , talking as an infant is a miracle in itself and that is quiet enough .

Quote

Well.. For sure this has been discussed before. I never got answers to my questions.. I took that to mean no one had the answers. This may not matter to you, because you have already decided that the Bible has to be corrupted and it's message changed, to be otherwise lends difficulties to the Quran. However.. These allegations are levelled at my Holy Book, the Bible which I hold in the highest esteem as Gods inspired scripture. As I am led to believe that none can change Gods word, then I don't feel it unreasonable to ask for evidence of this crime.. Because be in no doubt crime it is... The most heinous of crimes imaginable because it is against God Himself. If a person is accused of a crime in a court of law evidence is submitted before a considered judgement and sentence is decided. Why should I settle for less.. When Gods very message is at stake and being brought into question. You are the ones making the claims of corruption then you should provide the evidence. If you have none.. Then the claims you make are baseless.

There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .

Quote

are you saying the Sunnah is also of divine origin?

Quote

do you know why Moses staff was turned into a snake? God sent the plagues on Egypt.. For a reason. What reason does the Quran give for the plagues on Egypt please? What reason do you see for miracles like splitting the moon and a crying log? I can see the food multiplication has good cause and is of benefit.. I do not see reason behind the moon and the log.

You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .

Quote

not suspicious.. But I guess I'm judging by the criteria we are given in the Bible for miracles and applying it to the Quran. Which is wrong of me. Maybe you do not need miracles to be nothing more than be proof of prophethood.

I see .

Quote

No, I don't believe either of these miracles can be attributed to Jesus, I don't know of any Christian that would think they were. If you want to know I can explain why in more detail... But I have already touched on this in another thread so maybe it is enough that you believe it.. I don't.. Leave it there.. :)

Fair enough .

Quote

Seriously, Jesus turning water to wine served a purpose. They ran out of wine at the marriage feast in Canaan. Walking on water served a purpose as well; He had somewhere to go. But what's the purpose of Muhammad splitting the moon or Jesus talking in the cradle or creating life from a clay or wooden bird when He had already created all life forms?

Fair enough . Still though , as said , in Islam , it doesn't have to directly benefit people financially or so .

[Burninglight]

Quote

And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?

Not really, Jesus walking on water shows that He was above nature and all creation. It shows that by faith in God we too can live a miraculous life. Peter got out of his boat with Jesus' permission to walk on water. Living the Christine life is impossible just like walking on water. It shows that all things are possible with God, and that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us to accomplish a pleasing life to God by God's grace and faith. There is a message; the message walked on water!

Quote

And to me , the noble Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him - which are also revelations from Allah - are enough . Also , just because we don't know the reason for him talking in cradle aside from the innocence of lady Mary doesn't mean there isn't . Not to mention that we shouldn't be ashamed if it was the only reason . People could have denied that he's her child or that he was born of no father or anything else . Jews knew about teh coming of Christ and it's recorded in theri books - Islam says so too - and yet they denied that it was him and accused him of things and they're still waiting for the "real Christ" which is in Islam the false Christ (Dajjal) . That's what the ones of falseehood always do . Also , talking as an infant is a miracle in itself and that is quiet enough .

The Jews didn't know Jesus was to be born of a virgin. The only way the Jews or anyone else learned of this is through the NT Bible which is Holy and Noble. People can say it is corrupted, but they have no proof to show how, when, where, and who and for what reason. Who made money or benefited from corrupting the Bible to say Jesus died to save us from our sin or that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory or that the wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord? This message is stumbling to the Jews first. Why should we accept the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is noble? Mormons say the Book of Mormon is noble and God's last testament. Why should we accept their book and prophet? Do you see what I mean?

Quote

There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .

Give proof and explain why God wouldn't preserve or guard all His word from the beginning; why the Quran. Did Allah not know man would corrupt His word from the beginning or did he learn by what they did to the torah and gospel. Do you see the problem I am having here?

Quote

You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .

I believe it. You don't? Why?

Quote

Fair enough . Still though , as said , in Islam , it doesn't have to directly benefit people financially or so .

Who said anything about financially?

Peace and blessings

[pandora]

Quote

And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?

well what reason for splitting the moon? Or a crying log? You ask what benefit to mankind was Jesus walking on water? Most importantly to show His disciples (in this instance) who He was. It goes that the boat they were in was already battling the waves.. And they were exhausted by their efforts and getting nowhere.. Jesus appeared to them walking on the water. Naturally they were at first scared. We take from this when things are bad and we are scared and alone... Jesus is with us....

God said to Isaiah ~ "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you” (Isaiah 43:2).

We know The Lord may not come at the time we think He should come... because He knows when we need Him the most. Jesus had waited until the boat was as far from land... And when all their hope was gone. In essence, Jesus was testing the disciples' faith, and this meant removing every human prop. Jesus walked on the water to show His disciples that the very thing they feared... the raging sea was merely a set of steps for Him to come to them. We often find difficult experiences in life such as illness, loss of loved ones, and financial hardships hard to bear, only to discover that these experiences can bring Jesus closer to us. It's when we are most low and in need He is there for us.

Another point is that Jesus proved Himself to be in command of the elements, something only God can do. He revealed this truth to the disciples who recognized His divinity and responded with a confession of faith in Jesus as God and their worship of Him:

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:32-33). Jesus did not rebuke them for this as it was His way of bringing them to the understanding of who He was..anybody can say I am Gods son.. But coming to the understanding oneself by evidence given and works done is of greater value in growing in faith with God. Hence the parallel teaching in Isaiah..

Now, this is not "fake story" ... As such claim has been made by the dear Sister. It is a true understanding of what lesson Christians take from this miracle. You are free to see no meaning or even write it off as nonsense. But you did ask... And you know me and fondness for words.. Sorry for the long post..

Peace.

[pandora]

Quote

There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .

ok, I get that. It is how you see things... Fair enough. However, with no proof of corruption of the previous scriptures then it's impossible to prove Gods previous message was changed in the Old Testament. As we see Christ as the message rather than the messenger.. And Christ lives and is eternal.. Then that message must also be incorruptible. What of Joseph Smith and the revelation of Mormon?... He claimed this message is written on "golden plates" which is in heaven. You see it is a matter of personal faith, and you take on faith that which you cannot prove.

Quote

You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .

Yes, I believe the staff of Moses became a snake. This was Gods way to show the Pharaoh the importance of Moses.. The aim of the miracles (10 plagues) was to show Pharaoh the power of the ONE true God as opposed to the numerous powerless gods the Egyptians worshipped. So the Pharaoh would release Gods people and let them go. So in this way they did benefit the Hebrew people at this time.. Eventually Pharaoh capitulated and set the people free... Yet reluctantly.

Miracles by by their nature would never bring financial benefit to anyone as God does not deal in cash.
Peace.

[نصير الدين]

Quote

Not really, Jesus walking on water shows that He was above nature and all creation. It shows that by faith in God we too can live a miraculous life. Peter got out of his boat with Jesus' permission to walk on water. Living the Christine life is impossible just like walking on water. It shows that all things are possible with God, and that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us to accomplish a pleasing life to God by God's grace and faith. There is a message; the message walked on water!

And you're supposing that splitting the moon doesn't show that Allah is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him ?

Quote

The Jews didn't know Jesus was to be born of a virgin. The only way the Jews or anyone else learned of this is through the NT Bible which is Holy and Noble. People can say it is corrupted, but they have no proof to show how, when, where, and who and for what reason. Who made money or benefited from corrupting the Bible to say Jesus died to save us from our sin or that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory or that the wages of sin is death but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord? This message is stumbling to the Jews first. Why should we accept the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is noble? Mormons say the Book of Mormon is noble and God's last testament. Why should we accept their book and prophet? Do you see what I mean?

Why should we believe by default that your book is holy ? Why should anyone believe that the other's book is holy ? That's where discussions are held . But not now . It's unrelated .

Quote

Give proof and explain why God wouldn't preserve or guard all His word from the beginning; why the Quran. Did Allah not know man would corrupt His word from the beginning or did he learn by what they did to the torah and gospel. Do you see the problem I am having here?

There seems to be a gap between your understanding and Pandora's . I just explained here :

Quote

But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief .

Everything you asked about is answered in this last quote .

Quote

I believe it. You don't? Why?

I do . I was asking .

Quote

Who said anything about financially?

Financially , materially , you know the roll .

Quote

well what reason for splitting the moon? Or a crying log? You ask what benefit to mankind was Jesus walking on water? Most importantly to show His disciples (in this instance) who He was.

What's the difference between that and prophets having miracles to show who they are ?

Quote

We know The Lord may not come at the time we think He should come... because He knows when we need Him the most. Jesus had waited until the boat was as far from land... And when all their hope was gone. In essence, Jesus was testing the disciples' faith, and this meant removing every human prop. Jesus walked on the water to show His disciples that the very thing they feared... the raging sea was merely a set of steps for Him to come to them. We often find difficult experiences in life such as illness, loss of loved ones, and financial hardships hard to bear, only to discover that these experiences can bring Jesus closer to us. It's when we are most low and in need He is there for us.

That's what we believe in Islam as well . Except the part of Christ peace upon him being one with Allah of course . Hardships , tough times , we are taught to always have faith and be pateint trying to be even the slightest like the prophets who endured countless sorts of harm .

Quote

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:32-33). Jesus did not rebuke them for this as it was His way of bringing them to the understanding of who He was..anybody can say I am Gods son.. But coming to the understanding oneself by evidence given and works done is of greater value in growing in faith with God. Hence the parallel teaching in Isaiah..

Good , and it's the same with prophets . Anyone can say he's a prophet but only through evidence can that be proved . There were also false prophets during the first years of the Islamic nation who were expoesed for different reasons .

Quote

Now, this is not "fake story" ... As such claim has been made by the dear Sister. It is a true understanding of what lesson Christians take from this miracle. You are free to see no meaning or even write it off as nonsense. But you did ask... And you know me and fondness for words.. Sorry for the long post..

Again , we all have our beliefs .

Quote

ok, I get that. It is how you see things... Fair enough. However, with no proof of corruption of the previous scriptures then it's impossible to prove Gods previous message was changed in the Old Testament. As we see Christ as the message rather than the messenger.. And Christ lives and is eternal.. Then that message must also be incorruptible. What of Joseph Smith and the revelation of Mormon?... He claimed this message is written on "golden plates" which is in heaven. You see it is a matter of personal faith, and you take on faith that which you cannot prove.

Ironically missing the point in honesty . Now let's put this Smith guy - who I don't know at all - aside and focus on the issue . First , it's not how I see things . This is an Islamic belief and a matter of faith . I did say that I won't go into the matter of corruption because I'm no expert . And I repeat again , when we believe that Islam is true through signs and evidence , we believe whatever it says as it cannot be wrong . Some might misunderstand and those of falsehood will surely make slanders , but that's what faith means . It's not a matter of blind belief . And please don't dive into stuff like "You can't prove your faith" because you'd be the same as what you describe of pot and kettle . Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .

Quote

Yes, I believe the staff of Moses became a snake. This was Gods way to show the Pharaoh the importance of Moses.. The aim of the miracles (10 plagues) was to show Pharaoh the power of the ONE true God as opposed to the numerous powerless gods the Egyptians worshipped.

And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?

Quote

Miracles by by their nature would never bring financial benefit to anyone as God does not deal in cash.

Financially , materially , bodily , you know what I mean .

[pandora]

Quote

What's the difference between that and prophets having miracles to show who they are ?

on one level.. Not a lot, in this particular miracle Jesus was not proving to mankind His validity as a prophet.. he was bringing to the understanding of the disciples of who He was. Which as per our belief was more than a prophet. We're going to differ here... Each to their own and all that.

Quote

That's what we believe in Islam as well . Except the part of Christ peace upon him being one with Allah of course . Hardships , tough times , we are taught to always have faith and be pateint trying to be even the slightest like the prophets who endured countless sorts of harm .

thats fine, Christians identify more on a personal level with God, as Jesus taught us was possible. Jesus showed we could know God through Him.. At least a part of God... That we can understand.

Quote

Good , and it's the same with prophets . Anyone can say he's a prophet but only through evidence can that be proved . There were also false prophets during the first years of the Islamic nation who were expoesed for different reasons .

interesting point.. Does the Quran tell you how to distinguish between a true and false prophet as the Bible does? I thought it claimed you should believe and trust in all prophets. We know false prophets can also have miracles and signs.. Not all miracles are from God.

Quote

Ironically missing the point in honesty . Now let's put this Smith guy - who I don't know at all - aside and focus on the issue . First , it's not how I see things . This is an Islamic belief and a matter of faith . I did say that I won't go into the matter of corruption because I'm no expert . And I repeat again , when we believe that Islam is true through signs and evidence , we believe whatever it says as it cannot be wrong . Some might misunderstand and those of falsehood will surely make slanders , but that's what faith means . It's not a matter of blind belief . And please don't dive into stuff like "You can't prove your faith" because you'd be the same as what you describe of pot and kettle . Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .

my faith is not blind.. It is based on the Spirit of truth that is God. I don't even need miracles or signs to know that. God wrote it on my heart. :) I am told to test the prophets so test them I will.. If they are found wanting. Then their message is not for me to follow. It's truth.. You can't prove faith.. Faith is what you have in the absence of logic. How can you ever hope for God and all God is to conform to human understanding and logic? So how can you prove to me that Islam is truth? Miracles and signs? Well the Bible has them in abundance.. The miracles attributed to Jesus alone are greater in number than all the prophets combined. How do you prove by today's scientific standards that those miracles happened? You can't so you take it on faith that they did and that faith is based on your intrinsic need for a divine being .. God.. That oversees all we are. Don't belittle faith over logic.. Logic and evidence can and could one day be disproven .. Faith is unshakable.

Quote

And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?

never said I didn't accept it in Islam. I may have said the reasons in Islam as to why it happened may differ.. But the recording event itself I have no issues with.

Quote

Financially , materially , bodily , you know what I mean .

financially.. No way as God does not deal in cash. materially.. Again doubtful.. As that implies storing up treasures on earth which do not benefit anyone in eternity. Bodily.. That may be pertinent.. Because as our time on earth we are body.. As that body contains our spirit and the spirit being the concern of God, then a miracle should be considered to hold some benefit to the body..
Weather it be bringing understanding of how best to live our lives ensuring our spirit returns to our creator in good state. Or the understanding through using our body, mind and spirit to best serve mankind and further enlightenment and understanding of God. I see that has a place and a benefit.

Peace to you.

[Burninglight]

Quote

And you're supposing that splitting the moon doesn't show that Allah is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him ?]

I am supposing nothing. There is no evidence that this happened. It would be written and documented in independent sources and known world wide like the flood of Noah recorded in all cultures. The splitting of the moon would've cause tidal flooding all around the world, and billions of people groups, tongues, nations, and languages would have seen the moon spilt and documented it. If some remote people saw it happen, I would take it to have been an illusion. Besides, faith doesn't require one to see God's power, and when God does something supernatural or a miracle, it is for a good reason and not just to show off His power. We know by faith God has power, and those who don't have faith even if they see God's miracles they will still not believe. So what is the point of splitting the moon, and what is it with the crescent moon over the Mosques? There seems to be moon based things going on in Islam that I don't understand.

Quote

[
... Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .]

Uhm, do you mean blind faith as in believing the moon was spilt without evidence?

Quote

[
And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?

Maybe, it is because we don't have blind faith.

Peace be unto you

[نصير الدين]

Quote

on one level.. Not a lot, in this particular miracle Jesus was not proving to mankind His validity as a prophet.. he was bringing to the understanding of the disciples of who He was. Which as per our belief was more than a prophet. We're going to differ here... Each to their own and all that.

Very well .

Quote

interesting point.. Does the Quran tell you how to distinguish between a true and false prophet as the Bible does? I thought it claimed you should believe and trust in all prophets. We know false prophets can also have miracles and signs.. Not all miracles are from God.

It tells us to believe in REAL prophets . That includes the ones Quran named and ones it didn't name . And for the record , prophet Muhammad peace upon him is the last of the prophets and messengers with the last message to mankind . Anyone who shows up after that claiming prophecy is a false one to us by default .

Quote

my faith is not blind.. It is based on the Spirit of truth that is God.

I didn't say it is .

Quote

You can't prove faith.. Faith is what you have in the absence of logic. How can you ever hope for God and all God is to conform to human understanding and logic? So how can you prove to me that Islam is truth?

We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .

Pandora , you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .

Quote

never said I didn't accept it in Islam. I may have said the reasons in Islam as to why it happened may differ.. But the recording event itself I have no issues with.

I see .

Quote

financially.. No way as God does not deal in cash. materially.. Again doubtful.. As that implies storing up treasures on earth which do not benefit anyone in eternity. Bodily.. That may be pertinent.. Because as our time on earth we are body.. As that body contains our spirit and the spirit being the concern of God, then a miracle should be considered to hold some benefit to the body..
Weather it be bringing understanding of how best to live our lives ensuring our spirit returns to our creator in good state. Or the understanding through using our body, mind and spirit to best serve mankind and further enlightenment and understanding of God. I see that has a place and a benefit.

To clear things , I seem to have been unclear . In Arabic , the word "Maal" means whatever a person owns . I thought it can be translated to "financially" . Thus , if the word means "Cash" , I went in the wrong direction .

Quote

I am supposing nothing. There is no evidence that this happened. It would be written and documented in independent sources and known world wide like the flood of Noah recorded in all cultures. The splitting of the moon would've cause tidal flooding all around the world, and billions of people groups, tongues, nations, and languages would have seen the moon spilt and documented it. If some remote people saw it happen, I would take it to have been an illusion. Besides, faith doesn't require one to see God's power, and when God does something supernatural or a miracle, it is for a good reason and not just to show off His power. We know by faith God has power, and those who don't have faith even if they see God's miracles they will still not believe. So what is the point of splitting the moon, and what is it with the crescent moon over the Mosques? There seems to be moon based things going on in Islam that I don't understand.

I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .

First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :

[IMG]http://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm[/url]

And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :

Quote

" There is a Persian manuscript illumination which shows a similar white mountain (in the background) and a mountain covered with flowers and fruit (as veggies), and a weird gash in the earth behind a man who is looking at a split faced moon similar to those found in the Madrid Codex on the top register of pages 91-92 and 93. 1

Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :

[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg/300px-Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg[/IMG]

Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :

Quote

Quote

Dear :
I have located the manuscript you are interested in. The shelf mark is
IO ISLAMIC 2807 and the section you want is on pages 81 verso - 104
verso (inclusive). It is entitled “” Qissat Shakruti Firmadwhich,
according to the catalogue (Loth 1044), is “A fabulous account of the
first settlement of the Muhammadans in Malabar, under King Shakruti
(Cranganore), a contemporary of Muhammad, who was converted to Islam by
the miracle of the division of the the moon.”
Should you wish to order a microfilm or paper copy see

http://www.bl.uk/services/copy/reproduction.html
for prices and method
of ordering and payment.
For further enquiries on photography you should contact
reproductions-customer-service@bl.uk,
quoting in all correspondence the
shelfmark IO ISLAMIC 2807, pages 81 verso- 104 verso and your full
postal address.
Sincerely
Colin Baker
Dr Colin F Baker
Head of Near and Middle Eastern Collections
The British Library
Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections
96 Euston Road
London NW1 2DB
T +44 (0)20 7412 7645
F +44 (0)20 7412 7858




colin.baker@bl.uk
www.bl.uk

So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .


Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .

And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :

Quote

2:189 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is [in] one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors. And fear Allah that you may succeed.

And :

Quote

14:33 And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day.

And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :

Quote

41:37 And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.

The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?

Quote

Uhm, do you mean blind faith as in believing the moon was spilt without evidence?

Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .

So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .

[pandora]

Quote

Very well .



It tells us to believe in REAL prophets . That includes the ones Quran named and ones it didn't name . And for the record , prophet Muhammad peace upon him is the last of the prophets and messengers with the last message to mankind . Anyone who shows up after that claiming prophecy is a false one to us by default .

Does it give you a criteria by which to judge the true from the false?

Quote

I didn't say it is .

Ok then.. No problemo.

Quote

We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .

with all due respect, majority opinion is not a measure of logic. Scientific and numerical miracles are found in all areas of life, and certainly in relation to mathematical sequences they can be found in all books within word patterns. They are not miraculous in themselves. Otherwise if we were to find the same numerical sequences in say.. The works of Shakespeare then are we to take it his works are if divine origin? Don't think so. I do so agree with your last comment.. How it speaks to the pure nature of the heart.. That can be used as a measure of divinity. I get exactly that from the Bible and Christianity.

Quote

Pandora , you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .

maybe I did not explain well.. I meant by relying on logical proofs that conform to our understanding of science, logic etc. in current time. Then if and when someone in the future comes along and proves that wrong then your basis for belief could crumble. If you have pure faith, that God is all powerful nothing can assail that because you cannot prove it by means of human understanding. For the simple reason God will always be beyond our understanding except for that which God chooses to reveal to us. It's for God to determine who is on the right path.. We can claim what we like the ultimate knowledge is Gods and Gods alone. For me this moment in time God has chosen for me Christianity and given me my faith in Jesus as my redeemer the the guidance of the Spirit. For you you have been sent on a different path... That we choose to question and explore that "path" on our journey is good for then we can be sure we have not been... As the saying goes.... Slipped a custard. ;)



I see .

Quote

To clear things , I seem to have been unclear . In Arabic , the word "Maal" means whatever a person owns . I thought it can be translated to "financially" . Thus , if the word means "Cash" , I went in the wrong direction .

Fair enough.. I just hope you got my point that such things are of no importance to God, what we do with them if we have them may be... But the possession of them ..not at all.

[/QUOTE]I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .

First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :

[IMG]http://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm[/url]

And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :



Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :

[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg/300px-Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg[/IMG]

Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :



So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .


Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .

And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :



And :



And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :



The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?



Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .

So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .

[/QUOTE]

all I can say on this last section of your post is.... It must be a man thing!!!! Tut..

Blessings upon you