It is true that 1Jn 5:7 is an interpolation, but that doesn't hurt the concept of God's tri-unity or the central message of the gospel. Unlike the recompilation of the Quran by Uthman which involved the burning of the original Qurans, we have the copies of the original information so we can check on omissions/abrogation and interpolation. That is why Christians tell you that verse was an interpolation by an over zealous Scribe. You cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran, because Uthman burned all after Muhammad's death, and he didn't use memory to recompile them but the help of text from Hafsah's copy then her copy was destroyed. This would bother me. Who gave Uthman the divine mandate to act as Allah's editor or to put to writing the Quran which means recite not write?
As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation. IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God. Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity. As for the trinity, I have a problem with a god who doesn't understand what Christians believed and still believe about God's tri unity; for instance, Allah implies that the trinity consisted of the son, mother and father with him being the third of three by the way he questions Jesus; "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count the three that Allah alludes to as the three we Christians should desist to say. Allah confirms a misconception when he says: they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" Forgive me if I am not quoting exactly but you get the idea. What Christians called or call God the father the third of three and who called Mary God? Not even the Catholics who worship Mary considered her god or part of the trinity.
As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus. David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..." There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word. That is why He could forgive sin; It is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am" that is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way. Even Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am" We must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"
It is true that 1Jn 5:7 is an interpolation, but that doesn't hurt the concept of God's tri-unity or the central message of the gospel.
Very good that you admitted it is spurious
Actually, there is no concept of a triune God in the Bible
The Bible mentions that there is only one God in both the OT and the NT
Jesus Pbuh makes it completely clear that this one and only true God is the Father
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
So the eternal life according to Jesus Pbuh is to know that the Father is the only true God But according to the faith of trinity, the Father is a person, the Son is a person, the Holy spirit is a person and each is a god, but they are all finally not 3 persons, they are only 1 person who is God which is a completely different concept from what Christ was teaching people
The concept of triunity of God is not taught or preached by the Bible, it's just mere conclusions from christians
If the concept of triunity of God was clear in the Bible, one would expect all christians to believe in trinity, yet many christians in the past like Ebonites and Arians and many christians nowadays, like Jehova's witnesses do not believe in the trinity although they believe in the same books that you believe in
Why?
Because they read the Bible but they didn't find the concept of trinity in it
Let me paste what you said previously :
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I never said the Bible preaches trinity or that Jesus is God the father. Trinity is not taught so how can I teach on it?
So you have nothing to prove the faith of trinity, other than proving that Jesus Pbuh is God ( which is a concept that contradicts many parts of the Bible) and to prove that the Holy spirit is God ( which is a concept that has nothing to support in the Bible) and then conclude that since God is one, they must all be a one God.
So your faith is just built upon completely debatable conclusions but is not mentioned frankkly in the Bible and the only frank evidence of it is spurious
If trinity is the faith that God wants us to believe in, why didn't he mention it frankly in the Bible? Why is the only phrase that mentions it frankly in the Bible spurious?
Surely, God doesn't want us to know anything about this faith or believe in it, if he wanted us to believe in it , he would have taughted it to us
This is completely logic, but you will just deny that it's logic because you gonna follow your overwhelming emotions, so please put them aside now and think with your brain
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Unlike the recompilation of the Quran by Uthman which involved the burning of the original Qurans, we have the copies of the original information so we can check on omissions/abrogation and interpolation. That is why Christians tell you that verse was an interpolation by an over zealous Scribe. You cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran, because Uthman burned all after Muhammad's death, and he didn't use memory to recompile them but the help of text from Hafsah's copy then her copy was destroyed. This would bother me. Who gave Uthman the divine mandate to act as Allah's editor or to put to writing the Quran which means recite not write?
Here, there is misunderstanding from you
Let me explain to you first, how was the holy Quran transferred to us from the time of prophet Muhammad Pbuh
The Quran was transferred to us in 2 ways: orally and written
Let me give you a brief idea about both ways
Let's first discuss the oral way
The companions of the Prophet Pbuh learned the Quran directly from him and they memorized it and learned it by heart, others learned the Quran directly from the Prophet's companions, others learned from those who learned from the companions and so on making a continous chain starting by the Prophet Pbuh and ending by many people who are currently alive
This is what we call (Ijaza)
A muslim is said to have an (Ijaza) if he recites the Quran completely after knowing it by heart without reading in the presence of someone who has also recited the Quran after memorizing it in the presence of another one who has also recited the Quran after memorizing it in the presence of someone else who has also done the same making a continous chain to someone who has recited the Quran in the presence of one of the companions of the Prophet Pbuh who have learned the Quran directly from him. Those who have the Ijaza receive certificates showing the name of every single person in this chain starting by people who are currently alive and ending by the Prophet Pbuh himself.
This is how the holy Quran was orally transferred to us. We know many of the quranc verses by heart and we read them while doing our prayers without reading from the Mushaf ( Book in which the holy Quran is written) and many people know the holy Quran completely by heart.
Let's now discuss, how was the written Quran transferred to us.
Through the following steps :-
1- When the prophet Pbuh was alive, when he read the Quranic verses, some of his companions used to write these verses.
2- After the death of the Prophet Pbuh, Abu Bakr Alsedeek , his best companion, told Zaid Ibn Thabet to start collecting all the Quranic verses and suras in one place. The policy of Zaid ibn Thabet in the collection of the Quran was to write a quranic verse after finding it written and finding 2 men witnessing that they heard Prophet Muhammad Pbuh reading it. So what Zaid ibn thabet did, was collecting the Quranic verses that were written everywhere in one book or in one place.
3- Some of the companions of the prophet Pbuh wrote some of the quranic verses and suras independently, and they used to write with them some explanatory commentaries together with the Quranic verses. These companions went to other countries and the people began reading the Quran as written by these companions.
4- To solve this problem, Uthman collected all quranic texts written by the companions and burnt them and he returned to the text that was collected by Abu Bakr and Zaid Ibn Thabet which is written from the text that was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and he copied this text and sent it to the different islamic countries.
This is why we are sure that the written text of the Quran is completely preserved. The text written by Uthman is taken from the text written by Abu Bakr which is taken from the text written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation.
Actually I don't see a difference between ( the beginning of the creation of God) and ( the begiining of God's creation)
Here is another translation saying that the Christ is the beginning of God's creation : 14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV) http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re3.14
Now, do you see that the Bible is clearly stating that Jesus Pbuh is created by God or you will just keep arguing ?
What's strange is that you are arguing about whether Jesus Pbuh is God's creation or not and you are ignoring that Jesus Pbuh in the same chapter in revelation said more than once that the Father was his God?
Read revelation 3 :
11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)
So now do you believe that the Father is the God of the Christ ?
How on earth can the Christ be God if the Father is his God? How can he be God while he himself has a God?
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IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
Do you know that your concept of Jesus Pbuh being the word of God or the logos by which you mean that Jesus is divine and he is the power or the word through which God created everything is just taken from Philo, a helenized jew that was living at the same time when Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC - 50 AD) ?
Philo said that God created everything by the Logos, the author of the fourth Gospel just plagarized the concept of the Logos from Philo and just added that the Christ is the Logos?
Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Philo_of_Alexandria
In the Septuagint the term logos is used for the word of God in the creation of heaven in Psalm 33:6, and in some related contexts. Philo of Alexandria[edit]
Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matterand perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[28] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."[28] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."[29] Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[28] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible(Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.[28] Christianity[edit]
The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:[30]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.[31]
John also explicitly identifies the Logos with Jesus:
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"[32]
As theologian Frank Stagg writes: As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God,[Jn 1:1] ... Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God".[Jn 1:1] God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption.[33]
....................................... Early Christian writers[edit]
Following John 1, the early Christian apologistJustin Martyr (c 150) identified Jesus as the Logos.[49][50] Like Philo, Justin also identified the Logos with the Angel of the Lord, and used this as a way of arguing for Christianity to Jews:
I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos[51]
In his First Apology, Justin used the Stoic concept of the Logos as a way of arguing for Christianity to non-Jews. Since a Greek audience would accept this concept, his argument could concentrate on identifying this Logos with Jesus.[49] However, Justin does not go so far as to articulate a fully consistent doctrine of the Logos.[49]
Do you now believe that the concept of the Logos was just copied from Philo ?
You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God.
I don't know what exactly do you mean? and what is the source of this strange claim?
You are claiming that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name
Prove your claim!
In Islam, God has many names, which are called الأسماء الحسنى ( Alasma Alhusna, which means the best names)
Many of them are mentioned in the holy Quran, and they are known by all muslims not just Prophet Muhammad Pbuh
Just prove your claim !
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Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity.
Surely, Allah is God's name.
Probably you are saying this stupid claim, which many of the christians who don't know arabic keep repeating. On the other hand, you will never find an arab christian saying this claim You know why?
Because Allah الله is the word used by both muslims and arab christians to refer to God.
If you read the Bible in arabic, everytime you read the word ( God), the arabic Bible will use the word ( Allah).
Even Jesus Pbuh used the word Allah. He used to speak in aramaic. Check this link to know the aramaic word for ( God) http://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi
You have to write the english word ( God) in the required space, to see the aramaic word, and then tap (searh)
You will find that this is the pronounciation of the aramaic word is :
Sure. this word is very close to the arabic word Allah.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus.
NO, surely this word is referring to David not Jesus Pbuh.
Let's read Psalms 2 again :
7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.
The speaker here is saying ( The Lord said to me), so it is clear that he is speaking about himself, not about one of his descendants
Who is the speaker here?
It's surely David Pbuh before Jesus was born by hundreds of years.
The jews understood that the begotten son of God here is king David and they understood from this title that God loves king David, not that king David is divine and that they should worship him.
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”[/TD]
But the author of the epistle to Hebrews, just wanted to prove that Jesus is the son of God from the OT, so he claimed that Psalms 2 and 2 sam. 7 are both about Jesus, although the former is about king David and the latter is about king Solomon.
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David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..."
Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved son
According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
So what's the difference?
The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!
Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12
17This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…
So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?
Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.
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There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word.
I told you before that the concept of the word or logos being divine and being the first born of God and that everything was created through the Logos is just taken from Philo, who was the first to make up these concepts while Christ was alive
The author of the fourth gospel just took what Philo said and added that Jesus Pbuh is the Logos
If you think that this is the central gospel message, you are just proving that the central gospel message is plagarized from heretic jews
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
1- Its faith is simple and so clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. Its the same faith in which Moses Pbuh and all the prophets of the old testament believed in.
.
We can say the same regarding Christianity if we exclude Muhammad.
Of course, not.
All the prophets of the old testament believed that there is only one God, the heavenly Father.
None of them believed in the trinity or that God had a son who will come to earth as a man to be crucified so that our sins are forgiven.
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
2- All the things that some people attack in Islam are in the Bible like Jihad and polygamy .... etc
.
I attack no such things about Islam. What you say here is true and I agree, but we don't see Christians practicing Jihad and polygamy today as part of their religion; IOW, even though it happened, God is not now commanding us to live like that. I don't have a problem with having more that one wife if your in a country that allows it, and your wife agrees to it, lol, good luck to you on that. This also raises questions such as why did Muhammad have more wives than his revelation allowed, and from what I understand, Muhammad proves that plurality in marriage makes it impossible to treat all wives equally. Why the double standard. Please explain.
It's good that you agree with me about this.
However, it's not important whether God is ordering you to live like this now or not, the important thing is that God allowed you at a certain period of time to live like this which means that you can't consider it something bad.
Also, it's worth to mention that Jesus Pbuh and the whole new testament didn't forbid polygamy and of course Jesus Pbuh didn't order his disciples to be involved into battles because the number of his followers was few and they were not able to face the romans for hundreds of years after him.
Now why did prophet Muhammad Pbuh marry many wives?
If we have a quick look at the story of each marriage, we will understand.
Starting from the age of 25 till 50, our beloved prophet Muhammad Pbuh lived only with one wife, Khadija bent Khowailid may God be pleased with her.
After her death, the muslims told the prophet to marry. They suggested for him 2 women, Aisha may God be pleased with her, the daughter of Abu Bakr his best friend and Sowda bint Zama may God be pleased with her and she was an old woman from the early muslims and she left Mecca with her husband and emigrated to Alhabasha (Ethiopia) to avoid persecution in Mecca and her husband died there, so after the prophet's wife death and her husband's death some muslims suggested that they marry each other and this is what happened.
After that prophet Muhammad Pbuh married Hafsa the daughter of Omar ibn Alkhattab one of his best companions. After the death of her husband, her father Omar ibn Alkhattab wanted to find for her another husband and he asked some of his friends to marry her but they appologized and prophet Muhammad Pbuh decided to marry her. May be you won't understand this story, but according to the culture of the arabs especially at that time, it's not nice for a woman to stay without a husband taking care of her.
After this prophet Muhammad Pbuh married Om Almasakeen may God be pleased with her, after her husband's death probably in one of the battles.
Then the prophet Pbuh married Om Salama may God be pleased with her. She was one of the early muslims and her husband died in one of the battles leaving her with 4 children. Abu Bakr the best friend of the prophet want to marry her after her husband's death to take care of her and her children and she appologized and then the prophet Pbuh married her.
Then prophet Muhammad Pbuh then married Zeinab bint Gahsh may God be pleased with her who was his cousin. There is a story for this marriage. The propet's wife Khadija brought for him a slave, his name was Zaid ibn Haritha who was a young kid at this time. Then the parents of Zaid came afterwards to take him back from the prophet Pbuh. Prophet Muhammad Pbuh told them that he will make Zaid choose either to stay with him or go back with them. Zaid choosed to stay with the prohet Pbuh and from this day the prophet adopted and called him Zaid ibn (the son of) Muhammad. The quran then considered adoption forbidden and Zaid was again called Zaid ibn Haritha. The prophet Pbuh told his cousin Zainab to marry Zaid, she first refused because he was once a slave but then she decided to obey the prophet Pbuh. After their marriage, they were not happy with each other probably because Zeinab may God be pleased with her didn't like the idea of being married to someone who was a slave. Zaid told the prophet Pbuh that he wants to divorce her and the prophet Pbuh told him to be patient but finally there was no other way and they divorced. The prophet then married Zainab for two reasons, because the arabs considered that a man should not marry the wife of his adopted son and this was to show that adoption in islam is completely forbidden and the other reason in my opinion was because this marriage between Zainab and Zaid may God be pleased with both of them was recommended by the prophet Pbuh.
The prophet Pbuh then married Gowairiyah bint (the doaughter of) Alharith, and this was after there was a battle between the muslims and her tribe, she was the daughter oof the boss of this tribe, she was captured and she asked the Prophet Pbuh to set her free. The prophet Pbuh set her free and married her, the muslims set all the captured women free and they said they are the relatives of the wife of our prophet, and then the tribe became muslims.
Then the prophet Pbuh married Safiyya bint Howayii may God be pleased with her , she was the daughter of the leader of a tribe of the jews, the prophet Pbuh had a battle with this tribe of jews and her father and husband were killed in the battle and she was captured. The prophet Pbuh set her free and married her.
Then he married Om Habiba, who was one of the early muslims who emigrated to Habasha to avoid persecution in Mecca. Her husband died in Habasha and the prophet Pbuh married her afterwards and she then came from Habasha to Madina in Saudi arabia.
Finally the prophet Pbuh married Maymoonah bint Alharith may God be pleased with her and she went to the prophet Pbuh and asked him to marry her and he accepted.
So we can see clearly that all the marriages of the prophet Pbuh were for certain reasons :for example :to support women whose husbands died in battles or to marry the daughters of his enemies to encourage them to follow him and join Islam.
Also it is worth to mention that probably the prophet Pbuh married this number of women before it became forbidden for muslims to marry only 4 women, and when muslims were not allowed to marry only 4 women some of the muslims were married to 10 women and the prophet Pbuh told them to stay with 4 and leave the others but for the prophet Pbuh the Quran stated that his wives are the mothers of muslims and no muslim should marry them after the prophet Pbuh so if the prophet Pbuh left some of his wives will just be left unmarried.
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
3- The holy Quran and the Sunnah contain some miracles and prophecies that turned out to be true..
All the prophecies in the Bible turn out to be true, and some are yet to be fulfilled.
Well even if some of the prophecies of the Bible were true, what's the problem ?
According to my faith, some parts of Bible sre true and some are false, so if some of the prophecies of the Bible are true ,they are from the true parts that were really inspired by God.
But according to you, the Quran is not inspired by God and it is just written by prophet Muhammad Pbuh, so how could the prophecies of the quran and sunnah turn out to be true? What about the scientific miracles of the Quran?
Probably we can talk later about these prophecy and scientific miracles in details.
But for the time being you can watch this video
Compare this to the false prophecies in the Bible
Matthew 16 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. 28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
So the bible is prophesizing that some of those who saw the Christ won't die till they witness the second coming of the Christ and it's now 2000 years since the christ was alive on earth and those people died and their sons died and their grandsons died and the Christ didn't return yet.
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
4- The Bible clearly prophecizes prophet Muhammad Pbuh. .
It is only clear to some Muslims! If it were clear to me, I'd be a Muslim.
The prophet pbuh is very clearly mentioned in the Bible especially in Isaiah 42 but we can discuss this later on
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
The Quran speaks about the true Torah and the true Gospel that were inspired to Moses Pbuh and Jesus Pbuh, but the Bible that you have today according to our belief is partially true and partially falsified and Christians admit this.
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What Christians? Bart Erhman is not a Christian. The true torah and gospel was given to Muhammad and Allah didn't say it had a problem; in fact, Muhammad never said it had such a problem; so, if there were, the problem would've had to happen some time after Muhammad's death, but we can prove nothing as changed since then. The burden of proof is on you to show who changed the Bible when and where, give the motive and so on. If the Bible is so messed up, why did Muhammad borrow from it particularly the NT Bible such stories as the virgin birth of Jesus. It cannot be found in any other books, and yet Islam rejects the reason for Jesus' virgin birth. Please explain that.
I copied from you notes from netbible and other books admitting presence of errors of the scribes in the Bible and admitting that there are non-authentic spurious verses in the Bible.
Also I mentioned verses in the holy Quran stating that the Bible was falsified and I gave you examples of spurious parts of the Bible.
Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't borrow from the NT the story of virgin birth. Simply, this is a true story, so Luke knew about it and he wrote it in his message to Theophilus. God told us about the story of virgin birth in the holy Quran too. However, the Quran mentions more details about the story like the story of the Christ speaking just after his birth so you can't say it's just copied from the NT.
Simply the reason of the virgin birth of Jesus Pbuh is as a sign of the power of God and of course this could not be a proof that Jesus is the son of God or God himself.
Adam Pbuh was created without neither a father nor a mother and this is not an evidence that he is son of God or God and the same applies to Jesus Pbuh.
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I can discuss with you, but with others as well, because you are so busy that your responses come so few and far between.
Well some of the people who wrote other topics that you are responding to are not available now and it's a bit difficult for us to keep tracing you everywhere to answer you. So, it's better if we concentrate in this discussion and I think you now have a lot to answer to.
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Peace to you brother of humanity
Thank you.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Like you said the term trinity is not in the Bible and 1Jn 5:7 is spurious; moreover, I never said the Bible was the word of God; I said Jesus is the word of God. The Bible is a history book that reports the failures of man and God's intervention with men. Some the Bible is God's direct word to people through prophets, but not all of the Bible is. As I mentioned, it is not like the Quran to where very word in it is verbatim words out of God's mouth. If you find one discrepancy the whole of the Quran fails. It is not that way with the Bible. The Bible is just a book it is dead with out the Spirit of God who quickens the word to us, and that is when it becomes the word of God to us; otherwise, it is just a story that shows the faithfulness of God and the judgment of God and His mercy and love.
If I don't share what God is saying right now to you, I am not preaching Christ. Jesus is the only word of God, and we experience Him through the Holy Spirit. So we know from Scripture that God is one and Jesus is His word and we know God's spirit convicts us of error and sin. It is not important to me that someone coined the term trinity because I understand the concept and I understand it is not my job to preach of teach it. The biggest thing about true Biblical Christianity which Muhammad and Allah didn't seem to understand is that it is not a religion as much as it is a relationship with God. It is religion that nailed Jesus to the cross. We true Christians that have a relationship with Jesus know God and we can be filled with His Spirit. Our faith is the substance or what we hope for and the proof or evidence of what we don't see. Without faith it is not possible to please our God. Those that come to him must believe that He is and, He rewards those who seek Him diligently. It relationship not religion. It is God by His spirit who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It is not by our works that we can please God; it is by our faith that works by love. When we have this kind of faith, good deeds will be visible. If they are not visible, there is no faith. People can do good deeds and not have faith; that means nothing to God, but it is not possible to have faith without good works just as you cannot have smoke without fire. Nothing anyone can say against the Bible can tear a Christian of His faith once He has truly experience Christ to where God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that God is conforming us to the image of Christ. The path of the just is as a shinning light of day it shines more and more until the perfect day like the noon day sun. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. There are many nominal Christians that convert to Islam who know about Christianity and Jesus, but they don't know Christ personally in relationship. Those the Christians you get that call themselves reverts. They never knew Jesus; they only knew about Him. I know Jesus friend and want to make Him known, but the Jesus I know is not the same Jesus of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons or the Muslims. What we do with this message I shared determines our eternal destiny so help me God.
Like you said the term trinity is not in the Bible and 1Jn 5:7 is spurious; moreover, I never said the Bible was the word of God; I said Jesus is the word of God. The Bible is a history book that reports the failures of man and God's intervention with men. Some the Bible is God's direct word to people through prophets, but not all of the Bible is. As I mentioned, it is not like the Quran to where very word in it is verbatim words out of God's mouth. If you find one discrepancy the whole of the Quran fails. It is not that way with the Bible. The Bible is just a book it is dead with out the Spirit of God who quickens the word to us, and that is when it becomes the word of God to us; otherwise, it is just a story that shows the faithfulness of God and the judgment of God and His mercy and love.
If you believe that the Bible is just a story that contains spurious parts
How do you know that anything that you read in it is true?
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If I don't share what God is saying right now to you, I am not preaching Christ. Jesus is the only word of God, and we experience Him through the Holy Spirit. So we know from Scripture that God is one and Jesus is His word and we know God's spirit convicts us of error and sin. It is not important to me that someone coined the term trinity because I understand the concept and I understand it is not my job to preach of teach it. The biggest thing about true Biblical Christianity which Muhammad and Allah didn't seem to understand is that it is not a religion as much as it is a relationship with God. It is religion that nailed Jesus to the cross. We true Christians that have a relationship with Jesus know God and we can be filled with His Spirit. Our faith is the substance or what we hope for and the proof or evidence of what we don't see. Without faith it is not possible to please our God. Those that come to him must believe that He is and, He rewards those who seek Him diligently. It relationship not religion. It is God by His spirit who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It is not by our works that we can please God; it is by our faith that works by love. When we have this kind of faith, good deeds will be visible. If they are not visible, there is no faith. People can do good deeds and not have faith; that means nothing to God, but it is not possible to have faith without good works just as you cannot have smoke without fire. Nothing anyone can say against the Bible can tear a Christian of His faith once He has truly experience Christ to where God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that God is conforming us to the image of Christ. The path of the just is as a shinning light of day it shines more and more until the perfect day like the noon day sun. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. There are many nominal Christians that convert to Islam who know about Christianity and Jesus, but they don't know Christ personally in relationship. Those the Christians you get that call themselves reverts. They never knew Jesus; they only knew about Him. I know Jesus friend and want to make Him known, but the Jesus I know is not the same Jesus of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons or the Muslims. What we do with this message I shared determines our eternal destiny so help me God.
Just emotions ......
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
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Originally Posted by Burninglight
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